Fuck Michael Jordan

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

The 'Fuck (___fill in Blank___) is one of my signature thread titles. It shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Fuck you Steve.

duffy munn wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I wish there was more footage of him. I'd love to see what kind of stuff he had in his prime. I remember taking a deep dive into all of his accomplishments and he is a freak of nature in terms of an athlete. All his track and field accomplishments, his bench press, the amount of three somes he was in to his basketball game there's no question the guy was a Bo Jackson level genetic freak of nature.

Wilt basically just overpowered people. He also had a great touch around the rim and was an outstanding passer. ( when he wanted to be).

Is there a good source of footage to watch him in his prime?

I watched an interview with Kareem on the Dan Patrick show because of this thread. Dan said in terms of being the GOAT he feels like he gets short changed in the discussion. Kareem said he was like Roberto Clemente, he made it look too easy and because of his height people didn't appreciate how hard he worked at it. He also said his main passion was baseball and he wanted to be a pitcher. Would be something else to watch someone even taller than Randy Johnson on the mound.

Max is back.

[ig]B_c3aYpA2BN[/ig]

Is that the kid from those funny rap videos about John Starks?

Froggy Fresh?

No. This Max kid does impression videos. Has some pretty funny Zion content.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Froggy Fresh?

No. This Max kid does impression videos. Has some pretty funny Zion content.

Yeah. That's it. This is the video I kept thinking of while watching that.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Max is back.

[ig]B_c3aYpA2BN[/ig]

OTPT > Max > James

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Max is back.

[ig]B_c3aYpA2BN[/ig]

These dudes do some real good stuff

Michael Jordan Faced Better Competition Than LeBron James
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

duffy munn wrote:Wilt basically just overpowered people. He also had a great touch around the rim and was an outstanding passer. ( when he wanted to be).

Size, strength and athleticism.  In athletics, sometimes an athlete comes along that is simply at a different level in this regard.  Golf is easy to see in this regard as both Jack and Tiger were simply different compared to the field.  It's harder to notice in team sports.  Magic was unique because he was this great point-guard in a forward's body. Unique.  James and Jordan, great athletes and players, not game-changing, but just better.  Wilt was simply different than anyone in basketball.  There were big men, but none combined that size with his power and athletic abilities. There was no matching his abilities, at least until the field itself started to change.

Think of this - the NBA record for most rebounds in a game is 55 set by Chamberlain.  Impressive, right?!   He did it against Bill Russell.  That says everything I need to know about Wilt......

Turtleneck wrote:Michael Jordan Faced Better Competition Than LeBron James
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

I hope some day there's a time machine invented so I can watch Lebron's teams and the Warriors teams destroy the Bulls.

Turtleneck wrote:Michael Jordan Faced Better Competition Than LeBron James
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

LMAO

aualum06 wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Michael Jordan Faced Better Competition Than LeBron James
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

LMAO

That's what I thought. I think people are looking back on that era with rose colored glasses. Yes, Jordan was unbelievable but all of a sudden a 10 part doc comes out and suddenly he's on a different planet from everyone else. It's like okay pump the breaks a little.

Steve and Alum, can you address the flaws in the methodology and how you would measure it differently?

Turtleneck wrote:Steve and Alum, can you address the flaws in the methodology and how you would measure it differently?

How many Dynasties did Jordan go up against? Maybe Lakers and Pistons but both teams were running on bald tires at that point. Lebron beat the Spurs, and Warriors.

Turtleneck wrote:Steve and Alum, can you address the flaws in the methodology and how you would measure it differently?

The depth of the league and the way the game has changed. You have 8-9 guys on the floor that can score from anywhere in every game every night in the league now. I'm not saying the Bulls wouldn't compete now they would but they would be totally blown away by the scoring depth on every team.

aualum06 wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Steve and Alum, can you address the flaws in the methodology and how you would measure it differently?

The depth of the league and the way the game has changed. You have 8-9 guys on the floor that can score from anywhere in every game every night in the league now. I'm not saying the Bulls wouldn't compete now they would but they would be totally blown away by the scoring depth on every team.

Today's bigs shooting would pull Rodman and Horace Grant away from the basket and take away their rebounding edge. Also, Rodman would get whistled with flagrant fouls and face ejections.

steveschneider wrote:

How many Dynasties did Jordan go up against? Maybe Lakers and Pistons but both teams were running on bald tires at that point. Lebron beat the Spurs, and Warriors.

The NBA in the Jordan Bulls years was watered down by expansion. 1988 - Hornets and Heat. 1989 - Timberwolves and Magic. 1995 - Grizzlies and Raptors. There hasn't been expansion since 2002 and what we've seen in recent years is the coordinated movement of elite players seeking to form super-teams to compete. It's not a watered down league anymore but a stratification approach where fewer teams are able to compete. It's not a deep league these days like the Celtics, Lakers and Pistons faced in the 80s as the expansion in the 70s had settled down. But it's also not the Globetrotters-Generals dynamic that the Bulls had either....

It is inane shit but I like how arguments about GOAT is so prevalent to NBA hoops. You never hear for MLB, if Kofax was here he'd have an 18-0 record. Or Babe Ruth would have 90 HRs a year. Or Stengal's Yankees would destroy the Astros. Only the NBA. They even have hot takes shows that go over the same old 'What if' and 'Goat arguments' every fucking year.

steveschneider wrote:It is inane shit but I like how arguments about GOAT is so prevalent to NBA hoops. You never hear for MLB, if Kofax was here he'd have an 18-0 record. Or Babe Ruth would have 90 HRs a year. Or Stengal's Yankees would destroy the Astros. Only the NBA. They even have hot takes shows that go over the same old 'What if' and 'Goat arguments' every fucking year.

That's because in every other sport people admit that the players are bigger faster and stronger

aualum06 wrote:

steveschneider wrote:It is inane shit but I like how arguments about GOAT is so prevalent to NBA hoops. You never hear for MLB, if Kofax was here he'd have an 18-0 record. Or Babe Ruth would have 90 HRs a year. Or Stengal's Yankees would destroy the Astros. Only the NBA. They even have hot takes shows that go over the same old 'What if' and 'Goat arguments' every fucking year.

That's because in every other sport people admit that the players are bigger faster and stronger

True that. I also get sick of this 'he's a psycho with a killer instinct that no one today could match' but then you see guys like Duncan, Kareem and Shaq with a shit load of rings and all are great guys.

aualum06 wrote:

That's because in every other sport people admit that the players are bigger faster and stronger

Correct. It's clearer in other sports. Golf, basketball and boxing tend to lend themselves to ignoring the progression in athletic ability in such arguments.

Heathens '87 wrote:

duffy munn wrote:Wilt basically just overpowered people. He also had a great touch around the rim and was an outstanding passer. ( when he wanted to be).

Size, strength and athleticism.  In athletics, sometimes an athlete comes along that is simply at a different level in this regard.  Golf is easy to see in this regard as both Jack and Tiger were simply different compared to the field.  It's harder to notice in team sports.  Magic was unique because he was this great point-guard in a forward's body.  Unique.  James and Jordan, great athletes and players, not game-changing, but just better.  Wilt was simply different than anyone in basketball.  There were big men, but none combined that size with his power and athletic abilities.  There was no matching his abilities, at least until the field itself started to change.

Think of this - the NBA record for most rebounds in a game is 55 set by Chamberlain.  Impressive, right?!   He did it against Bill Russell.  That says everything I need to know about Wilt......

Wilt was clearly the best rebounder of his era, but I'm not entirely sure how impressed we should be by it. Look at this leaderboard. It's all in the 50s and 60s. I think guys just chucked up whatever shot they felt like back then. The teams were putting up 160 (Wilt's team scored 169 when he hit 100, I believe). What I'm picturing in my head is kind of hilarious.

Michael Jordan and the Tragedy of the Bully

"One does not need to be “like Mike” to achieve greatness. Just ask Bill Russell."

Heat Miser wrote:Michael Jordan and the Tragedy of the Bully

"One does not need to be “like Mike” to achieve greatness. Just ask Bill Russell."

Fun MSU twitter content. Miles is ready to take on his boss.

[tw]1261895627518226432[/tw]

Charlie tells him to sit the hell down.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Fun MSU twitter content. Miles is ready to take on his boss.

[tw]1261895627518226432[/tw]

Charlie tells him to sit the hell down.

I love it.

aualum06 wrote:

steveschneider wrote:It is inane shit but I like how arguments about GOAT is so prevalent to NBA hoops. You never hear for MLB, if Kofax was here he'd have an 18-0 record. Or Babe Ruth would have 90 HRs a year. Or Stengal's Yankees would destroy the Astros. Only the NBA. They even have hot takes shows that go over the same old 'What if' and 'Goat arguments' every fucking year.

That's because in every other sport people admit that the players are bigger faster and stronger

We covered that 200 posts ago...

steveschneider wrote:It is inane shit but I like how arguments about GOAT is so prevalent to NBA hoops. You never hear for MLB, if Kofax was here he'd have an 18-0 record. Or Babe Ruth would have 90 HRs a year. Or Stengal's Yankees would destroy the Astros. Only the NBA. They even have hot takes shows that go over the same old 'What if' and 'Goat arguments' every fucking year.

Because Anybody who doesn’t say Willie Mays was the best that ever lived isn’t worth talking to. Just ignore and move on. As I will if anyone wants to try to say Ruth Gehrig Cobb Wagner. There is Mays and then there is all the others you can romance about.

Period

Turtleneck wrote:

aualum06 wrote:

That's because in every other sport people admit that the players are bigger faster and stronger

We covered that 200 posts ago...

Also people care less about MLB

Also fewer players + better singular player marketing = more impact = more discussion over goat status

DWags wrote:

steveschneider wrote:It is inane shit but I like how arguments about GOAT is so prevalent to NBA hoops. You never hear for MLB, if Kofax was here he'd have an 18-0 record. Or Babe Ruth would have 90 HRs a year. Or Stengal's Yankees would destroy the Astros. Only the NBA. They even have hot takes shows that go over the same old 'What if' and 'Goat arguments' every fucking year.

Because Anybody who doesn’t say Willie Mays was the best that ever lived isn’t worth talking to. Just ignore and move on. As I will if anyone wants to try to say Ruth Gehrig Cobb Wagner. There is Mays and then there is all the others you can romance about.

Period

You’re so dumb. The answer is Bobby Higginson. Prove me wrong. You can’t.

DWags wrote:

steveschneider wrote:It is inane shit but I like how arguments about GOAT is so prevalent to NBA hoops. You never hear for MLB, if Kofax was here he'd have an 18-0 record. Or Babe Ruth would have 90 HRs a year. Or Stengal's Yankees would destroy the Astros. Only the NBA. They even have hot takes shows that go over the same old 'What if' and 'Goat arguments' every fucking year.

Because Anybody who doesn’t say Willie Mays was the best that ever lived isn’t worth talking to. Just ignore and move on. As I will if anyone wants to try to say Ruth Gehrig Cobb Wagner. There is Mays and then there is all the others you can romance about.

Period

Baseball writers should honor Willie Mays wish and put Barry Bonds in the HOF. Long over due.

steveschneider wrote:

DWags wrote:

Because Anybody who doesn’t say Willie Mays was the best that ever lived isn’t worth talking to. Just ignore and move on. As I will if anyone wants to try to say Ruth Gehrig Cobb Wagner. There is Mays and then there is all the others you can romance about.

Period

Baseball writers should honor Willie Mays wish and put Barry Bonds in the HOF. Long over due.

Willie Mays a ability vs his judgement of others are separate things

[tw]1262073401855934466[/tw]

First of all, the numbers say Barry Bonds was the greatest player ever.

Second of all, it's worth noting that Babe Ruth had a career 2.28 ERA and won 20+ games twice. If he had played against non-white players, it would be hard to argue anyone but Ruth.

Cameron wrote:First of all, the numbers say Barry Bonds was the greatest player ever.

Second of all, it's worth noting that Babe Ruth had a career 2.28 ERA and won 20+ games twice. If he had played against non-white players, it would be hard to argue anyone but Ruth.

Glad you agree it’s Mays Cameron

No more need to discuss it.

DWags wrote:

Cameron wrote:First of all, the numbers say Barry Bonds was the greatest player ever.

Second of all, it's worth noting that Babe Ruth had a career 2.28 ERA and won 20+ games twice. If he had played against non-white players, it would be hard to argue anyone but Ruth.

Glad you agree it’s Mays Cameron

No more need to discuss it.

I didn't mention Willie Mays at all.

I would like to modify my statement about the numbers and Bonds, however. I would rephrase it to say that the numbers show Bonds reached the highest peak ever (without regard for whether or not the league was integrated). If we exclude pre-integration, then Bonds's career numbers as a whole are the best. Otherwise it pretty much has to be Ruth.

Cameron wrote:

DWags wrote:

Glad you agree it’s Mays Cameron

No more need to discuss it.

I didn't mention Willie Mays at all.

I would like to modify my statement about the numbers and Bonds, however. I would rephrase it to say that the numbers show Bonds reached the highest peak ever (without regard for whether or not the league was integrated). If we exclude pre-integration, then Bonds's career numbers as a whole are the best. Otherwise it pretty much has to be Ruth.

Agree. It’s Mays.