Something about not doing well in recruiting

Class Rankings by year:  Do what you want with these.
2007 = 43
2008 = 47
2009 = 17
2010 = 31
2011 =31
2012 =42
2013= 47
2014 = 22
2015 = 22
2016 = 18
2017 =27 

We've won the big ten under Dantonio in 2010,  2013, 2015.  We also won the East in 2011.

If you add the four classes up that were recruited to MSU before their championships they look like this:

2010  team = Average class rating of 34.5
2013  team = Average class rating of 37
2015  team = Average class rating of 36

Next years team will have a four year class average of 26.  

Clearly Dantonio has won big tens and beaten OSU with much less than what he will have according to the class ratings. 

Dantonio has turned a lot of the lower rated kids into NFL players.  Can he do it with higher rated kids?

I don't know shit about any of this, and I think all class ratings should be done after the teams graduate.  

I don't think we're in as bad as shape and the chicken littles do.  But ratings don't mean shit.  It's attitude and work ethic.  Seems to me we had a really shitty locker room this past year.  Will it change?  Who knows.

Yeah the 2011 class averaged 3.0 stars but was loaded with talent. Perhaps a top 5 class loaded with 4 and 5 stars if they were reranked in terms of production in hindsight. So why should we write off this current class at 3.18 stars?
Then you look at the 2012 class of 2.80 stars that were just 5th year seniors and it was bust city.
But they are now gone and the 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 classes are 3.12, 3.27, 3.35 and 3.45. So if you really believe in this stuff you should be more optimistic than ever before as MSU will have the most recruiting ranking talent on the field than ever before.
Looking at the names of the 2013 class is concerning though and it is not hard to figure out why we stunk as we had back to back classes of crappy players that were juniors and seniors. Reshke is the only name I see in the entire class capable and even he has limited reps of winning football. The 3 classes after that better start producing but can they in reality make up for one bad senior class? Unfortunately I think not and that puts us two years away with a ceiling of mediocrity for next season.

Herbie Green wrote: with a ceiling of mediocrity for next season.

I think Herbie's right here. No one knows mediocrity like him.

I don't know the new rules buy I have no doubt that umaa / Harbaugh is able to convince Wilcher to encourage elite players at Cass Tech to attend and play for their shared alma mater.

However MSU is still getting 4* players and I believe with few exceptions there isn't much physically measurable physical differences between 50% of 5*'s and 50% of 4*'s. A lot of the differnce we see on the field is between their ears. The same for high rated 3*'s and 4*'s lower on the scale.

In today's game a lot of 4* and 5* players expect to see the field, sometimes as starters their first fall on campus. We also see the grad transfer effect. Both of those conflict with Dantonio's system of redshirting at least 75% of a recruiting class. All is not lost but its different.

Herbie Green wrote:Yeah the 2011 class averaged 3.0 stars but was loaded with talent.  Perhaps a top 5 class loaded with 4 and 5 stars if they were reranked in terms of production in hindsight.  So why should we write off this current class at 3.18 stars?
Then you look at the 2012 class of 2.80 stars that were just 5th year seniors and it was bust city.  
But they are now gone and the 2013,  2014, 2015, 2016 classes are 3.12,  3.27, 3.35 and 3.45.  So if you really believe in this stuff you should be more optimistic than ever before as MSU will have the most recruiting ranking talent on the field than ever before.
Looking at the names of the 2013 class is concerning though and it is not hard to figure out why we stunk as we had back to back classes of crappy players that were juniors and seniors.  Reshke is the only name I see in the entire class capable and even he has limited reps of winning football.  The 3 classes after that better start producing but can they in reality make up for one bad senior class?  Unfortunately I think not and that puts us two years away with a ceiling of mediocrity for next season.

I just think we've all been hit in the gut this year so much that our confidence level is very low and our expectations are even lower.  I see a lot of people thinking 7 wins tops.  I'm in that crowd.   I also think 2018 will be a very good year for MSU.  But I don't see why we can't have higher expectations for next year.  If you're a recruiting junkie, the numbers seem to suggest that Dantonio, According to the recruitniks, will have more talent on his team than when he won championships before.  I don't follow that shit, and think it takes attitude and hard work to win at the level we did the previous three years.   That disappeared last year, and it disappeared rapidly.  Is it something that is easy to get back?  Seems to me you need a core of players who are willing to watch film on a friday in the spring rather than go to Ricks.   We had that before, will we have it again?  Who knows.

DWags wrote:Seems to me you need a core of players who are willing to watch film on a friday in the spring rather than go to Ricks.   We had that before, will we have it again?  Who knows.

I think we had a VERY tough minded group of leaders starting with Max Bullough, Denicos Allen and Jack Allen. Those kind of people are very difficult to replace.

I just want a 5* with stats like Jabrill Peppers at MSU so tDude can tell us what a bust he is.

michiganstate.rivals.com/commitments/football/2013

Can you even find 3 captains in the 2013 class? The candidates would be Reshke, Holmes, Terry, Hicks, Williams and Cooper. And I am not sure if any of those graduated

kingstonlake wrote:

The_Dude wrote:

Beaten OSU with less?

Both times we beat OSU we've had stacked rosters with NFL talent.

By what analytical guideline? The NFL draft or recruiting stars?

Having players playing in the game that are actually going to play in the NFL.

2013 team had like 10 starters that made NFL teams.

2015 we had 3/4 of our starting DL in the NFL and than Evans who was developing into a stud. 3 NFL guys on the OL. We won that game up front.

Last year, outside McDowell and maybe Price we have no clear NFL players. And Price played like shit this year, really hurt him. Maybe Riley and Shelton have outside shots.

Just a massive disparity in on field talent.

So either the coaches forgot how to coach guys up or their recruiting has fallen off a cliff.

I think Dantonio really is an expert scout. You find a few 3 stars that are really 4 or 5 stars and now your class is in the top 20. Develop a few more on campus and now you end up with a top 10 class in actual production.
One thing I wonder though is if the scouting has dramatically improved in recent years by recruiting sites and the schools? Maybe there will never be another Darquese Dennard because today he would have offers from half of the SEC. Plus maybe if MSU is recruiting them then that might trigger other schools to follow because they know Dantonio is the shit

Herbie Green wrote:michiganstate.rivals.com/commitments/football/2013

Can you even find 3 captains in the 2013 class?  The candidates would be Reshke, Holmes, Terry, Hicks, Williams and Cooper.   And I am not sure if any of those graduated

Cousins was a three year captain.  I'm thinking we see Corley, maybe Higby, possibly Lewerke, Scott, Reschkke, Allen, Cooper as names we'll see that the team will choose from.   Sometimes the coaches just have to realize the leaders aren't necessarily the seniors.   I bet the team realizes that.

DWags wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:michiganstate.rivals.com/commitments/football/2013

Can you even find 3 captains in the 2013 class?  The candidates would be Reshke, Holmes, Terry, Hicks, Williams and Cooper.   And I am not sure if any of those graduated

Cousins was a three year captain.  I'm thinking we see Corley, maybe Higby, possibly Lewerke, Scott, Reschkke, Allen, Cooper as names we'll see that the team will choose from.   Sometimes the coaches just have to realize the leaders aren't necessarily the seniors.   I bet the team realizes that.

the team voted for those dudes last year. of course only byron Bullough knows his team mates names, so that might have played a roll

duffy munn wrote:

The_Dude wrote:


Having players playing in the game that are actually going to play in the NFL.

2013 team had like 10 starters that made NFL teams.

2015 we had 3/4 of our starting DL in the NFL and than Evans who was developing into a stud. 3 NFL guys on the OL. We won that game up front.

Last year, outside McDowell and maybe Price we have no clear NFL players. And Price played like shit this year, really hurt him. Maybe Riley and Shelton have outside shots.

Just a massive disparity in on field talent.

So either the coaches forgot how to coach guys up or their recruiting has fallen off a cliff.

Taking only in the OSU into this, how did we keep it close?

I mean with the massive talent disparity and all.

Simple, we only won 3 games, and they had uofm the next week

kingstonlake wrote:I just want a 5* with stats like Jabrill Peppers at MSU so tDude can tell us what a bust he is.

All of our five stars have been studs bro. That's the problem. Can't get them anymore out of Detroit. UM has it all locked up now. It sucks.

Tanfan! wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I just want a 5* with stats like Jabrill Peppers at MSU so tDude can tell us what a bust he is.

All of our five stars have been studs bro. That's the problem. Can't get them anymore out of Detroit. UM has it all locked up now. It sucks.

Pretty unreal how Blackwell couldn't open any pipelines. Top 7 kids in the state go to scum

Tanfan! wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I just want a 5* with stats like Jabrill Peppers at MSU so tDude can tell us what a bust he is.

All of our five stars have been studs bro. That's the problem. Can't get them anymore out of Detroit. UM has it all locked up now. It sucks.

Was this how it was in the Biggie Munn days?

NW only lost to OSU by 4 and that was in Columbus.

How'd they keep it close?

Herbie Green wrote:I think Dantonio really is an expert scout. You find a few 3 stars that are really 4 or 5 stars and now your class is in the top 20. Develop a few more on campus and now you end up with a top 10 class in actual production.
One thing I wonder though is if the scouting has dramatically improved in recent years by recruiting sites and the schools? Maybe there will never be another Darquese Dennard because today he would have offers from half of the SEC. Plus maybe if MSU is recruiting them then that might trigger other schools to follow because they know Dantonio is the shit

Coach D has failed in 4 straight recruiting cycles with defensive backs.

How's that possible to fall that far after putting two corners in the first round?

The_Dude wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:I think Dantonio really is an expert scout. You find a few 3 stars that are really 4 or 5 stars and now your class is in the top 20. Develop a few more on campus and now you end up with a top 10 class in actual production.
One thing I wonder though is if the scouting has dramatically improved in recent years by recruiting sites and the schools? Maybe there will never be another Darquese Dennard because today he would have offers from half of the SEC. Plus maybe if MSU is recruiting them then that might trigger other schools to follow because they know Dantonio is the shit

Coach D has failed in 4 straight recruiting cycles with defensive backs.

How's that possible to fall that far after putting two corners in the first round?

Cox, Nicholson.

The_Dude wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

By what analytical guideline? The NFL draft or recruiting stars?

Having players playing in the game that are actually going to play in the NFL.

2013 team had like 10 starters that made NFL teams.

2015 we had 3/4 of our starting DL in the NFL and than Evans who was developing into a stud. 3 NFL guys on the OL. We won that game up front.

Last year, outside McDowell and maybe Price we have no clear NFL players. And Price played like shit this year, really hurt him. Maybe Riley and Shelton have outside shots.

Just a massive disparity in on field talent.

So either the coaches forgot how to coach guys up or their recruiting has fallen off a cliff.

I'd be willing to bet you said all those recruiting classes sucked.

kingstonlake wrote:

The_Dude wrote:


Having players playing in the game that are actually going to play in the NFL.

2013 team had like 10 starters that made NFL teams.

2015 we had 3/4 of our starting DL in the NFL and than Evans who was developing into a stud. 3 NFL guys on the OL. We won that game up front.

Last year, outside McDowell and maybe Price we have no clear NFL players. And Price played like shit this year, really hurt him. Maybe Riley and Shelton have outside shots.

Just a massive disparity in on field talent.

So either the coaches forgot how to coach guys up or their recruiting has fallen off a cliff.

I'd be willing to bet you said all those recruiting classes sucked.

Bingo.

Why can't Dantonio find Bells and Dennard every year then?

Oops..

The_Dude wrote:Why can't Dantonio find Bells and Dennard every year then?

Oops..

Because he is no longer recruiting 2 stars

The_Dude wrote:Why can't Dantonio find Bells and Dennard every year then?

Oops..

Why hasn't he failed every year? OOPS

he's been highly successful

DWags wrote:Currently the 27th class in the country.  We will still offer more kids.  Currently the 5th class in the big ten

I'll let the recruiting guys tell me this class is worse or better than any other class Dantonio has put together while here.  It's my opinion he's won a couple of big ten titles and a rose and cotton with classes ranked less that last years and this years class.  

So, if your a chicken little, and into the numbers, go ahead and cluck cluck cluck.  

Me?  I'll be damned if that playoff team or this years 3-9 team changed my life one bit either way.

I don't know if Dantonio can turn a pigs ear into silk again.  He's won championships with classes ranked much lower.

It's not the worst class of Diantonio's career, but WHERE'S THE BEEF?? Where are the linemen who are the foundation of any program?

There's no beef. He better sign some big, fat, strong kids soon or it really will be time to scrap it.

BTW, I didn't ask if your life have changed any. I was just talking about the struggles in recruiting. It's not about Dwags.

Vlad wrote:

DWags wrote:Currently the 27th class in the country.  We will still offer more kids.  Currently the 5th class in the big ten

I'll let the recruiting guys tell me this class is worse or better than any other class Dantonio has put together while here.  It's my opinion he's won a couple of big ten titles and a rose and cotton with classes ranked less that last years and this years class.  

So, if your a chicken little, and into the numbers, go ahead and cluck cluck cluck.  

Me?  I'll be damned if that playoff team or this years 3-9 team changed my life one bit either way.

I don't know if Dantonio can turn a pigs ear into silk again.  He's won championships with classes ranked much lower.

It's not the worst class of Diantonio's career, but WHERE'S THE BEEF?? Where are the linemen who are the foundation of any program?

There's no beef. He better sign some big, fat, strong kids soon or it really will be time to scrap it.

We have 4 OL in this class and 10 OL that are currently Sophomores or lower.

Vlad wrote:

DWags wrote:Currently the 27th class in the country.  We will still offer more kids.  Currently the 5th class in the big ten

I'll let the recruiting guys tell me this class is worse or better than any other class Dantonio has put together while here.  It's my opinion he's won a couple of big ten titles and a rose and cotton with classes ranked less that last years and this years class.  

So, if your a chicken little, and into the numbers, go ahead and cluck cluck cluck.  

Me?  I'll be damned if that playoff team or this years 3-9 team changed my life one bit either way.

I don't know if Dantonio can turn a pigs ear into silk again.  He's won championships with classes ranked much lower.

It's not the worst class of Diantonio's career, but WHERE'S THE BEEF?? Where are the linemen who are the foundation of any program?

There's no beef. He better sign some big, fat, strong kids soon or it really will be time to scrap it.

BTW, I didn't ask if your life have changed any. I was just talking about the struggles in recruiting. It's not about Dwags.

I don't think your premise is correct about MSU struggling. We're a bit better than usual. So I thought I'd let you know my eldest is coming home tonight we're all going to the local pos basketball game and then dinner.

Tomorrow my kids are dragging me to a mall. Then I'm cooking prime rib. Right now I'm gonna go gas up the truck.

Just to be clear, tDude thinks dantonio and his staff are bad recruiters and the only reason they have beaten OSU is because the roster of players they recruited was full of NFL talent.

You can't make this up.

kingstonlake wrote:Just to be clear, tDude thinks dantonio and his staff are bad recruiters and the only reason they have beaten OSU is because the roster of players they recruited was full of NFL talent.

You can't make this up.

Everyone but him sees his idiocy. I don't understand why he's engaged by anyone. It's an exercise in futility.

DWags wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:Just to be clear, tDude thinks dantonio and his staff are bad recruiters and the only reason they have beaten OSU is because the roster of players they recruited was full of NFL talent.

You can't make this up.

Everyone but him sees his idiocy. I don't understand why he's engaged by anyone. It's an exercise in futility.

DWags wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:Just to be clear, tDude thinks dantonio and his staff are bad recruiters and the only reason they have beaten OSU is because the roster of players they recruited was full of NFL talent.

You can't make this up.

Everyone but him sees his idiocy. I don't understand why he's engaged by anyone. It's an exercise in futility.

This time of year I think it's important to try and make difference in someone's life.

I am worried.

"Can't Close" Diantonio needs to sign some linemen. Otherwise this class fails to meet the most critical needs and the program may need to be scrapped.

Some of the critics posting here have been tellng us the sky has been falling and Dantonio can't recruit for nearly a decade as Big Ten Championships and bowl trophies have been won.

Vlad wrote:"Can't Close" Diantonio needs to sign some linemen. Otherwise this class fails to meet the most critical needs and the program may need to be scrapped.

Sounds good. Keep us updated.

GRR Spartan wrote:Some of the critics posting here have been tellng us the sky has been falling and Dantonio can't recruit for nearly a decade as Big Ten Championships and bowl trophies have been won.

Would those be guys from the RCMB that crave any attention positive or negative?

GRR Spartan wrote:Some of the critics posting here have been tellng us the sky has been falling and Dantonio can't recruit for nearly a decade as Big Ten Championships and bowl trophies have been won.

It was a great 4 out of 5 year run.

How have the new England patriots fallen so far? 1 superbowl victory in the last 12 years. Belicheck is on the hot seat.