Israel war

kingstonlake wrote:

AvgMSUJoe wrote:
Which, if true means hamas is launching attacks from hospitals... the "warnings" Israel gave in previous days were justified. (I suppose?)

What a fucking mess.

If the audio released is authentic it was launch from a cemetery very close to the hospital. It fits the profile of Hamas cloaking offensive weapons in traditional safe zones.

I miss the good old days sonny boy when you could trust your enemies to be honorable and only attempt genocide in an ethical fashion.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

In one narrative you are correct.

However, a narrative with greater power is the Jewish verses Islamic one regarding "God" giving each sect this land as "holy land"

When people are fighting for the basis of reality they will do and justify any action.

Right, but just like American politics, the "real" fight is much more simple then the "religious" fight.
Parties are using the "religious" aspects to rile up those who don't give a shit. If "god" didn't want you to have the land then maybe it's not worth dying over.

Yes, the issue is once people really believe it is a God given right to the land and the others are evil, actually applies to US politics too, there is no act that is out of bounds.
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Possibly relevant.  

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2023/10/21/samantha-woll-dead-isaac-agree-downtown-detroit-synagogue-president/71271616007/

A politically connected Detroit synagogue president was found stabbed dead this morning outside her home in the city’s Lafayette Park neighborhood, east of downtown.

Samantha Woll, 40, had led the Isaac Agree Downtown Detroit Synagogue since 2022 and previously worked for Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin and on the re-election campaign of Attorney General Dana Nessel, both Democrats.

Motown Spartan wrote:

I miss the good old days sonny boy when you could trust your enemies to be honorable and only attempt genocide in an ethical fashion.

I really don't get the anti-Israel claim that they are attempting (or as more commonly stated "committing ") genocide.

First of all if they are attempting/committing genocide they aren't very good at it as the Arab population in Palestine has never been higher.

Second of all, generally a genocide involves rounding up as many of an ethnic group as you can and killing as many as you can. This isn't happening either.

The genocide claim seems to be an anti-Israel and/or anti-Semitic slur. Take your pick.

of an ethnic group as you can and killing as many as you can. This isn't happening either.

The genocide claim seems to be an anti-Israel and/or anti-Semitic slur. Take your pick.

The issue is extremely complex but is usually dumbed down to a land claim issue.

"Palestinians" are penned into a hugely dense little strip of land.  Many justify the warring due to "who was there first",  But the problem with that rationale is that it's an arbitrary line in time essentially and it assumes something like Palestinians arrived at some point and displaced natives, or that Jews arrived some time and displaced natives.  Both are factually inaccurate, the region has changed hands over and over and over, over thousands of years.  The conquerors didn't just eradicate the natives and replace them each time.  The conquered peoples often over time integrated with the invaders and began identifying themselves in the same way, and so it went over and over.  It's essentially a melting pot, or was rather.  They both have a shared history in the region and both have claims, but stupid people are influenced by stupid arguments so you have such things like the Gaza strip lines being drawn, war between Jews and Palestinians, and past atrocities as well.  The region has ALWAYS shifted with the powers at the time and today is not really any different.  But today we have bombs and guns and stronger lines of demarcation to separate peoples that are perceived to be different but really share a linked history.

The answer is difficult to come by. the fact that there are sides at all is a problem and both sides have been lied to or influenced for the purposes of control and agendas.

Purely anecdotal:  

I spoke to an acquaintance who grew up in Gaza and still has family there.  According to him, when Hamas began winning elections they started to run things like the Mafia running a neighborhood.  That included tunnels being built thru neighborhoods whether you approved it or liked it or not.

It sets up a scenario where Israel could pretty much level most high population business/medical and high density residential buildings searching for and destroying the Hamas / Hezbollah tunnel systems.

GRR Spartan wrote:Purely anecdotal:  

I spoke to an acquaintance who grew up in Gaza and still has family there.  According to him, when Hamas began winning elections they started to run things like the Mafia running a neighborhood.  That included tunnels being built thru neighborhoods whether you approved it or liked it or not.

It sets up a scenario where Israel could pretty much level most high population business/medical and high density residential buildings searching for and destroying the Hamas / Hezbollah tunnel systems.

Yeah, we tried that in North Vietnam. Didn’t work.

kingstonlake wrote:Possibly relevant.  

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2023/10/21/samantha-woll-dead-isaac-agree-downtown-detroit-synagogue-president/71271616007/

A politically connected Detroit synagogue president was found stabbed dead this morning outside her home in the city’s Lafayette Park neighborhood, east of downtown.

Samantha Woll, 40, had led the Isaac Agree Downtown Detroit Synagogue since 2022 and previously worked for Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin and on the re-election campaign of Attorney General Dana Nessel, both Democrats.

so tragic and, from all counts, she seemed like a pretty amazing lady.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/10/23/2201067/--The-British-sold-the-same-horse-twice-The-1st-75-years-of-Palestinian-colonization-BEFORE-1947

This is a good outline of how the conflicts in Israel were created by now failed European States.  It leaves out the anti-Semitic actions by the Truman administration after the war, but that, except for those who want the US POV, is a late addition to how this mess was created.

BTW - TLTR

As it says. Britan sold the same horse twice.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:Possibly relevant.  

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2023/10/21/samantha-woll-dead-isaac-agree-downtown-detroit-synagogue-president/71271616007/

so tragic and, from all counts, she seemed like a pretty amazing lady.

Yeah but there’s writing on her shirt. Maybe it sent a conflicting message between “help me support Dana Nessel” and “Stab me”.

kingstonlake wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
so tragic and, from all counts, she seemed like a pretty amazing lady.

Yeah but there’s writing on her shirt. Maybe it sent a conflicting message between “help me support Dana Nessel” and “Stab me”.

On a personal safety level there are enough crazy people in the world that wearing any statement on a shirt is an invitation of violence.

Maybe just another random inner city murder? Very sad.

Rocinante wrote:It is not incongruous to both be appalled by what Hamas did and state unequivocally that what Israel is now doing will not bring peace. Only ending apartheid and occupation can do that. I don’t think being hard hearted to human suffering is a requirement of being a supporter of the Jewish people.

Quoting myself because sentiments just like this are now being demonized by Democrats. What the fuck is going on? I hate this.

Rocinante wrote:

Rocinante wrote:It is not incongruous to both be appalled by what Hamas did and state unequivocally that what Israel is now doing will not bring peace. Only ending apartheid and occupation can do that. I don’t think being hard hearted to human suffering is a requirement of being a supporter of the Jewish people.

Quoting myself because sentiments just like this are now being demonized by Democrats. What the fuck is going on? I hate this.

We live in a world where people tend to just run to their predetermined social/cultural/political corner and start screeching talking points at the other side.

I realize it's a shock to a lot of mouth breathers, but you can support Palestine and the people of Palestine and believe Hamas to be terrorists. You can support the people of Israel and believe that their government have committed acts of terror and are guilty of creating an environment that keeps their foot on the neck of Palestinians and, indeed, have perpetuated and provoked this tragedy.

the Israeli government and Hamas are both problematic, both at fault and both to blame. Two things can be true at the same time.

oh, and America is a stupid country.

For those of you who have access t the NYTimes, Thomas Friedman opinion piece on Oct 29 ‘23 contrasting India’s response to the 10  Pakistani jhadists who killed 160 including 60 in 2 high end tourist hotels in Mumbai in 2008 to Israel’s current response to its recent Hezbolah attack.

Avoiding the urge to respond in kind knowing there were known connections between high level Pakistani military and intelligence, India decided to use diplomatic, economic and covert methods to punish (and sometime liquidate) the terror group.

What’s going on in Gaza is nothing new.  The scope and size of Israel’s retaliation unprecedented.  In India, the Nov 2008 attack showed there were major breakdowns in India’s intelligence network that led to the successful attacks.

Netanyahu isn’t going to let a tragedy of a terrorist attack go to waste.  Israeli intelligence and defense was asleep at the wheel.  The wide scale retaliation is vengeance but it’s also a way to kick any criticism of his government’s preparedness way down the road.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

I realize it's a shock to a lot of mouth breathers, but you can support Palestine and the people of Palestine and believe Hamas to be terrorists. You can support the people of Israel and believe that their government have committed acts of terror and are guilty of creating an environment that keeps their foot on the neck of Palestinians

This largely depends what is meant by "support Palestine" and "support the people of Palestine"

Palestine and the people of Palestine have had ample opportunity to be part of a two state solution that would include a Palestinian nation composed of the West Bank and Gaza but have repeatedly rejected this in favor of a continuing quest to create a Palestine from the river to the sea. I don't support that.

Zurn wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

I realize it's a shock to a lot of mouth breathers, but you can support Palestine and the people of Palestine and believe Hamas to be terrorists. You can support the people of Israel and believe that their government have committed acts of terror and are guilty of creating an environment that keeps their foot on the neck of Palestinians

This largely depends what is meant by "support Palestine" and "support the people of Palestine"

Palestine and the people of Palestine have had ample opportunity to be part of a two state solution that would include a Palestinian nation composed of the West Bank and Gaza but have repeatedly rejected this in favor of a continuing quest to create a Palestine from the river to the sea. I don't support that.

Oh yes, the two state solution has been absolutely sincere at all times and nobody is making any illegal settlements in the west bank at all.

Zurn wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

I realize it's a shock to a lot of mouth breathers, but you can support Palestine and the people of Palestine and believe Hamas to be terrorists. You can support the people of Israel and believe that their government have committed acts of terror and are guilty of creating an environment that keeps their foot on the neck of Palestinians

This largely depends what is meant by "support Palestine" and "support the people of Palestine"

Palestine and the people of Palestine have had ample opportunity to be part of a two state solution that would include a Palestinian nation composed of the West Bank and Gaza but have repeatedly rejected this in favor of a continuing quest to create a Palestine from the river to the sea. I don't support that.

Just read an NPR article about the border crossings between Gaza & Egypt being opened for a very limited number of people.

These border crossings are under the control of Hamas.

So when people talk about Israel doing a midevil siege to Gaza they are ignoring the facts. Hamas (& Egypt) are the ones turning this into a seige.

You're right, Israel has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Cameron wrote:You're right, Israel has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Your problem Cam is that you apparently are unable to deal with nuance, and you can only argue or even see one point of view.

It is Hamas closing the borders that keeps people from fleeing an active war, and this battle is one that Hamas started.

Nailed it again, that is exactly my problem. You're on fire today.

Cameron wrote:Nailed it again, that is exactly my problem. You're on fire today.

You are nothing if not predictable.

Gaza’s current mess can be tracked back to their 2006 elections endorsed by Bush2. He was advised and truly believed elections would work. This belief was put into action in Iraq and Gaza.

Paraphrasing the linked article, when Gaza’s citizens voted in 2006, the more moderate Fatah party won 41% of the seats, the more hardline Hamas won 44%. Nether party wanted a coalition shared power solution. Hamas’ solution was to start murdering Fatah politicians to eliminate opposition. Not was Gaza residents voted for in 2006.

As I was told by an acquaintance who lived in Gaza before immigrating to the US, Hamas ran Gaza like organized crime would run a city. That included building (and adding on) tunnels already build for the express reason of moving people, weapons and munitions throughout the area. If your family opposed them they knew the consequences.

Combine Hamas hardline against Israel with Iran’s support and Israel’s hardline scorched earth response, this is going to take awhile.

I’m beginning to wonder if Netanyahu is laying the groundwork for annexation of Gaza and opening it up to Israeli occupation with settlements.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-elected-to-govern-gaza-george-w-bush-2006-palestinian-election.html

GRR Spartan wrote:Gaza’s current mess can be tracked back to their 2006 elections endorsed by Bush2. He was advised and truly believed elections would work. This belief was put into action in Iraq and Gaza.

Paraphrasing the linked article, when Gaza’s citizens voted in 2006, the more moderate Fatah party won 41% of the seats, the more hardline Hamas won 44%. Nether party wanted a coalition shared power solution. Hamas’ solution was to start murdering Fatah politicians to eliminate opposition. Not was Gaza residents voted for in 2006.

As I was told by an acquaintance who lived in Gaza before immigrating to the US, Hamas ran Gaza like organized crime would run a city. That included building (and adding on) tunnels already build for the express reason of moving people, weapons and munitions throughout the area. If your family opposed them they knew the consequences.

Combine Hamas hardline against Israel with Iran’s support and Israel’s hardline scorched earth response, this is going to take awhile.

I’m beginning to wonder if Netanyahu is laying the groundwork for annexation of Gaza and opening it up to Israeli occupation with settlements.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-elected-to-govern-gaza-george-w-bush-2006-palestinian-election.html

The current situation came about out of three historical narratives. First Britain's Empire & Colonies narrative, which left Britain in charge of Palistin, next Britain s promise the people of Palistin for home rule, finally the zionest movement in the European Jewish community wanting to regain what they regarded as their historic land & the British promising them that in 1946-8.

So Britian promised two sets of people the same land.

Now presently "Israel" has control of most of that land, but wants it all. "Palistin" has control of little of the land but wants it all.

Neither side is willing to accept a two state solution.

Really all anyone needs to understand. Both side would, if they could, kill everyone on the other side. To date Israel has the better of that, mostly due to antisemitism in other countries supporting a separate country for Jewish people they don't want in their own country.

This latest flare-up is just another battle in the destruction of Palistin.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Cameron wrote:You're right, Israel has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Your problem Cam is that you apparently are unable to deal with nuance, and you can only argue or even see one point of view.

It is Hamas closing the borders that keeps people from fleeing an active war, and this battle is one that Hamas started.

The politics of the Rafah crossing are super complex. It’s not a hill you should die on.

Trapper Gus wrote:

GRR Spartan wrote:Gaza’s current mess can be tracked back to their 2006 elections endorsed by Bush2. He was advised and truly believed elections would work. This belief was put into action in Iraq and Gaza.

Paraphrasing the linked article, when Gaza’s citizens voted in 2006, the more moderate Fatah party won 41% of the seats, the more hardline Hamas won 44%. Nether party wanted a coalition shared power solution. Hamas’ solution was to start murdering Fatah politicians to eliminate opposition. Not was Gaza residents voted for in 2006.

As I was told by an acquaintance who lived in Gaza before immigrating to the US, Hamas ran Gaza like organized crime would run a city. That included building (and adding on) tunnels already build for the express reason of moving people, weapons and munitions throughout the area. If your family opposed them they knew the consequences.

Combine Hamas hardline against Israel with Iran’s support and Israel’s hardline scorched earth response, this is going to take awhile.

I’m beginning to wonder if Netanyahu is laying the groundwork for annexation of Gaza and opening it up to Israeli occupation with settlements.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-elected-to-govern-gaza-george-w-bush-2006-palestinian-election.html

The current situation came about out of three historical narratives. First Britain's Empire & Colonies narrative, which left Britain in charge of Palistin, next Britain s promise the people of Palistin for home rule, finally the zionest movement in the European Jewish community wanting to regain what they regarded as their historic land & the British promising them that in 1946-8.

So Britian promised two sets of people the same land.

Now presently "Israel" has control of most of that land, but wants it all. "Palistin" has control of little of the land but wants it all.

Neither side is willing to accept a two state solution.

Really all anyone needs to understand. Both side would, if they could, kill everyone on the other side. To date Israel has the better of that, mostly due to antisemitism in other countries supporting a separate country for Jewish people they don't want in their own country.

This latest flare-up is just another battle in the destruction of Palistin.

It is called Palestine. What is going on? Does your device not have autocorrect or spell check?

Rocinante wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Your problem Cam is that you apparently are unable to deal with nuance, and you can only argue or even see one point of view.

It is Hamas closing the borders that keeps people from fleeing an active war, and this battle is one that Hamas started.

The politics of the Rafah crossing are super complex. It’s not a hill you should die on.

Okay...

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

The current situation came about out of three historical narratives. First Britain's Empire & Colonies narrative, which left Britain in charge of Palistin, next Britain s promise the people of Palistin for home rule, finally the zionest movement in the European Jewish community wanting to regain what they regarded as their historic land & the British promising them that in 1946-8.

So Britian promised two sets of people the same land.

Now presently "Israel" has control of most of that land, but wants it all. "Palistin" has control of little of the land but wants it all.

Neither side is willing to accept a two state solution.

Really all anyone needs to understand. Both side would, if they could, kill everyone on the other side. To date Israel has the better of that, mostly due to antisemitism in other countries supporting a separate country for Jewish people they don't want in their own country.

This latest flare-up is just another battle in the destruction of Palistin.

It is called Palestine. What is going on? Does your device not have autocorrect or spell check?

Noted...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palistin

I support Israel’s right to wipe out Hamas. Israel, the Good Palestinians and the world will be better off without them.

steveschneider wrote:I support Israel’s right to wipe out Hamas. Israel, the Good Palestinians and the world will be better off without them.

As Cam among others has pointed out, it will not fix the problem, which is two sided, and how Israel & Hamas together are going about it will kill too many mostly innocent people.

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

The current situation came about out of three historical narratives. First Britain's Empire & Colonies narrative, which left Britain in charge of Palistin, next Britain s promise the people of Palistin for home rule, finally the zionest movement in the European Jewish community wanting to regain what they regarded as their historic land & the British promising them that in 1946-8.

So Britian promised two sets of people the same land.

Now presently "Israel" has control of most of that land, but wants it all. "Palistin" has control of little of the land but wants it all.

Neither side is willing to accept a two state solution.

Really all anyone needs to understand. Both side would, if they could, kill everyone on the other side. To date Israel has the better of that, mostly due to antisemitism in other countries supporting a separate country for Jewish people they don't want in their own country.

This latest flare-up is just another battle in the destruction of Palistin.

It is called Palestine. What is going on? Does your device not have autocorrect or spell check?

Trapper Gus wrote:

steveschneider wrote:I support Israel’s right to wipe out Hamas. Israel, the Good Palestinians and the world will be better off without them.

As Cam among others has pointed out, it will not fix the problem, which is two sided, and how Israel & Hamas together are going about it will kill too many mostly innocent people.

Hamas is evil and needs to be taken out. You can’t let them exist and murder good people.

steveschneider wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

As Cam among others has pointed out, it will not fix the problem, which is two sided, and how Israel & Hamas together are going about it will kill too many mostly innocent people.

Hamas is evil and needs to be taken out. You can’t let them exist and murder good people.

However, so is Israel and its determination to take Palinstine's land going back into the mid 19th century when the modern zionest movement was formed. Before there were Palestinian terrorists there were Zionest terrorists killing innocents in the same ways.

Israel's current government has been taking Palestinian land from the Palestineians for over 15 years.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Camero n wrote:

It is called Palestine. What is going on? Does your device not have autocorrect or spell check?

Spell check is fine with it, just the wrong place.

How many good people is it okay to murder in order to stop other people from murdering good people?

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:How many good people is it okay to murder in order to stop other people from murdering good people?

Good question. This is a royal clusterfuck and a no win for anyone.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:How many good people is it okay to murder in order to stop other people from murdering good people?

Good people don’t elect/nominate Net and Yahoo

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:How many good people is it okay to murder in order to stop evil people from murdering good people?

FIFY

The answer, like most other questions of morality is, it depends...

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