Israel war

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

FIFY

The answer, like most other questions of morality is, it depends...

Further fixed it for you, kindly fuck off.

Reasonable point.

Therein is one of the paradoxes of bi-valued thinking.

No.

Cameron wrote:I believe something like 1400 dead, 250ish hostages after the 10/7 attacks. According to this tweet (now a couple days old), 3195 children have been killed now in retaliation. Worth it?

https://x.com/save_children/status/1718623774440849643?s=20

[tw]1718623774440849643?s=20[/tw]

Ask Hamas that question, this is going exactly as they want it to.

Well not "fucking"  

IMO blaming one or the other side for the foreseeable deaths in a 95 year old conflict created for them by third parties is to miss any of the big picture.

Israel & Hamas are engaged in mutually murdering people, egged on by radical movements in other countries, to their own ends.  There is no path forward that does not involve mass murder, which suits both sides as it draws attention and money to both sides.  To piss and moan about one side or the other only adds fuel to their fire.  

A pox on both their houses, and the houses of those enabling or supporting this.

The curse means nothing as all the zeitgeist has been in place for most of those 95 years and is running on history, and not making it, now.

https://www.kcra.com/article/house-rejects-effort-to-censure-rashida-tlaib/45721479

IMO this is a good vote.  If the House members are to represent their districts them she has a good finger on the pulse of her significantly Arabic district.  She often both sides it by pulling her rhetorical punches, which is fine.  The House should be more ethnical in membership to create better outcomes.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote: 

A pox on both their houses, and the houses of those enabling or supporting this.

Both sides are suffering but only one side is to blame. That would be the side that thought resurrecting the Holocaust was a good idea.

Both sides are to blame, at least back to the point Britain set this cat fight cage match up and then others chipped in.

GRR Spartan wrote:For crissake Trapper, enough with the Michener approach.

Jordan figured out it was better to negotiate.  Fatah was moving towards the negotiation table. Every one except the Islamic extremists, Hamas, Hezbolah and Iran got real concerned when multiple states in the Middle East started negotiations with Israel.

Can’t roll back what a bunch of Brits did in the last two centuries.  Palestine was the desert equivalent of swamp land and the Brits wanted oil so Palestine was always expendable.  

No one stepped in when Hamas got their foot in the door then killed its political enemies.

It’s not simple but it comes down to Netanyahu showing the world what he is and he’s cranked up the military action to such a degree because he knows the vaunted Israeli intelligence screwed up while he was in charge.

Well then we are talking how the cold war between Iran & the Saudis plays into this and the various factions of Muslims.

Sure, Hamas et al struck now to disrupt deals with Israel.  Israel strengthened Hamas over the years to keep the Palestinians politically split.  None of the countries supporting the Palistine side want them to move into their country.

In all the strengthening of Hamas was a power gamble by Israel, which they are paying for with blood.  Hamas's attack was egged on by Iran who doesn't give a fuck about dead Palestinians, except as propaganda, and who hopes it will disrupt better relations between Israel and others.

Israel's concern is to maintain the tension between Iran & the Saudis, which is why they hated Obama's deal on nukes with Iran and cheered when Trump blew it up. They want Iran to be a terrorist state. They also don't give a fig about democracy v dictatorship which is why the tacitly support Russia over Ukraine.

Spartytruth wrote:It's not a matter of being "acceptable". All war is a moral outrage. It's Hammas who is dedicated to the destruction of all Jews. It's Hammas who builds tunnels for conducting war under women and children. This is an existential war between Israel and Hammas.

We are fighting for Western civilization here just like in Ukraine. Ask yourself why did Hammas strike? Because Israel was normalizing relations with the Saudis and other Arab countries - Hammas cannot exist on that plane - just like Russia attacking Ukraine because Ukraine was coming nto the Western sphere.

there are whacckos zionist who are just like Hammas - but lets focus on reality - war is hell - but what are you going to do when an entire organization is dedicated to your destruction? Reason with them?

It is worse. This is global politics with Trillions at stake and global power structure balance. Everyone who is anyone is evolved and they all know what is going on.

The link is definatly too long to read but it explains what is going on...

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/11/3/2203320/-But-really-this-war-between-Israel-and-Hamas-is-all-about-money-power-and-oil

So a simpler comment...whatever Netanyahu is doing is in the best, as he perceives it, interest of Netanyahu.  It is no more complex than that.

The complexity are the interests talking to him, Biden for instance, and what they are saying that determines what he thinks his best interests are.

 Surely, as one would expect, people in the Israel power structures will have more influence.  The, probably collateral, death of children, to him, are viewed politically, and from some people influencing him, as a positive, not a negative.

steveschneider wrote:Tlaib accuses Biden of supporting genocide. What a disgrace.

People on this board do too. It's not that far out of an opinion. It's not outright genocide, like killing everyone, but it sure isn't as surgical as it might be.

Zurn wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:As long as the adults on both sides refuse to live together in peace their children will die.

Israel has given Palestinians plenty of opportunity to live in peace.  Palestinians do not want peace.   They want the elimination of Israel as a state.   What do you think "from the river to the sea" means?

Exactly the same thing when the Israel war mongers say it.

I wish there were "good guys" in this fight, but there aren't.

The United States has to consider its national interests first, and in this case the US's national interests is trying to keep a lid on wars in Israel & some areas of the Mideast.

If the citizens of the United States were interested in not killing children, they would need to clean up their county's internal affairs, where infant mortality increased again.

The "not killing children" meme in the US is highly hypocritical.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Exactly the same thing when the Israel war mongers say it ("from the river to the sea")

Sorry Trapper, Israelis do not use this phrase.  It is used by Palestinians to express the desire for one Palestinian state which obviously would mean the destruction of Israel.  

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/israel-palestine-one-state-solution

...shattered even the illusion of a two-state solution. Members of his new government have not been shy about stating their views on what Israel is and what it should be in all the territories it controls: a Greater Israel defined not just as a Jewish state but one in which the law enshrines Jewish supremacy over all Palestinians who remain there. As a result, it is no longer possible to avoid confronting a one-state reality.

Israel returned complete governmental control of Gaza to them in 2007

On 15 August 2005, Israel began its disengagement from the Gaza Strip, which it had occupied since the Six Day War of 1967. Over the course of 38 years, Israel established some 21 settlements across the coastal enclave and transferred approximately 9,000 settlers into the territory, in contravention of international law.

Faced with spiralling costs of administering the territory, Israel decided to pull its armed forces and illegal settlers from the Strip. As the world’s cameras rolled, those settlers unwilling to leave were dragged from their houses, a perfect PR moment demonstrating Israel’s “willingness” to withdraw from the occupied territories in a bid to “rekindle” the peace process.

Fourteen years later, Israel has not actually disengaged from Gaza; it still maintains control of its land borders, access to the sea and airspace. Gaza’s 1.9-million population remains under “remote control” occupation and a strict siege, which has destroyed the local economy and strangled Palestinian livelihoods.

The end of 2007 saw Israel completely seal Gaza’s borders, subjecting it to a strict siege which continues until today.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190815-remembering-israels-disengagement-from-gaza/

So do you work for Israel PR or are just too mindless to find out what is going on?

Cameron wrote:So which is it, Trapper? Is Israel doing a siege, or aren't they?

Hamas controls the border with Egypt, and according to the recent reports I read Hamas are the ones who are keeping it closed.  It can't be Israel's seige if Hamas is the one keeping the border closed.  Or for that matter if Egypt is keeping it closed.

Control of crossing into Egypt is confusing, to say the least, with Egypt & Hamas controlling it, and Israel monitoring what goods go through it, but from what I am reading it is Egypt keeping it closed as they fear a mass immigration of Palestinians into Egypt.

In October 2023 with the start of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, the crossing was again effectively sealed. For several weeks the Egyptian government refused to allow either Gazans or foreign nationals to exit Gaza via the Rafah crossing

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-gazas-rafah-border-crossing-matters-why-egypt-is-keeping-it-shut-2023-10-17/

steveschneider wrote:Attacks on Jews are increasing in the US. A protests killed an elderly man and some idiot crashed into a school. This is just the beginning.

Tip of the cap to the black Israelites in Chicago that attacked a bunch of pro Palestinian and pro Hamas woke crowd. Those dudes might have saved a life!

It's not one sided, though I question if either side is being attacked by the other. Mostly it is white thugs who do the attacking just like the riots & looting during the BLM protests which were often started by white thugs.

Jews, Palestinians and Muslims in the US told CNN they’re experiencing a growing fear about bigotry and hatred in the wake of the Hamas attack.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/29/us/hate-crimes-antisemitism-anti-muslim-dg/index.html