Re: Israel war

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-21, 08:45

Those trying to get aid to Ukraine believe its defense is central to U.S. national security. Today the Institute for the Study of War, a nonpartisan, nonprofit research group, assessed that “[s]everal Russian financial, economic, and military indicators suggest that Russia is preparing for a large-scale conventional conflict with NATO, not imminently but likely on a shorter timeline than what some Western analysts have initially posited,” within a matter of years.

Strange that Republicans are refusing to pass aid for Ukraine first by tying it to the need for southern border reforms, when they shot sown, and then by pointing at Israel's massive collateral damage and the Israel funding being tied with Ukraine, and they are pulling the Progressives along with them on that one.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 08:10

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United Nations Security Council is set to vote on a United States-sponsored resolution declaring that “an immediate and sustained cease-fire” in the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza is “imperative” to protect civilians and enable humanitarian aid to be delivered to more than 2 million hungry Palestinians.

U.S. Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield said she was optimistic that the new, tougher draft resolution would be approved Friday by the 15-member council.

The draft being put to a vote “determines” — which is a council order — “the imperative of an immediate and sustained cease-fire,” with no direct link to the release of hostages taken during Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel, which was in the previous draft. But it would unequivocally support diplomatic efforts “to secure such a cease-fire in connection with the release of all remaining hostages.”

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 08:29

Great. Maybe we can finally get to where we would have been a while ago if the Biden Administration hadn't repeatedly vetoed ceasefire resolutions.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 08:36

Cameron wrote:Great. Maybe we can finally get to where we would have been a while ago if the Biden Administration hadn't repeatedly vetoed ceasefire resolutions.

Oh, if you would only explain to us why the US did this, we could have a real conversation instead of just bitching about things.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 11:04

You would be less obnoxious if you shut the fuck up every once in a while.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 11:07

Cameron wrote:You would be less obnoxious if you shut the fuck up every once in a while.

I know, but I have to own the role you have assigned to me.

Seriously, what were the US objections to the other UN resolutions?

I read the article and come away with no idea, other than assuming they were something Israel didn't want.

I thought the US was ready to pull the trigger on this several weeks ago acording to reports.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 11:18

Several weeks is a long time in genocide/famine time. Unacceptably long, some might say...

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 11:28

Cameron wrote:Several weeks is a long time in genocide/famine time. Unacceptably long, some might say...

Unless you are supporting letting the President be a dictator to the globe, I don't see a political solution to the amount of time gaining a consensus requires.

If you want a dictator, then vote for Trump. He will not fix this problem, but he will act and do things without dealing with developing a common purpose as Biden tries to do.

I have a commitment to democracy & political consensus, and I feel that people on all sides of the political spectrum who become so angry that they are willing to forgo the process are on the edge of becoming what they are upset about.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 11:49

When the ceasefire resolutions are unanimous but for the Biden administration's veto, do you have commitment to consensus, or are you partisan hack?

You don't have to answer, we all know.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 11:54

Cameron wrote:When the ceasefire resolutions are unanimous but for the Biden administration's veto, do you have commitment to consensus, or are you partisan hack?

You don't have to answer, we all know.

Consensus is 100%, not 99%. In this case the US is representing those who themselves do not a veto power, plus, knowing that the US will be vetoing it allows other who may not actually support it to vote for it anyway.

In the article I linked, the Russian UN Ambassador was making negative noises about the resolution, so it is up in the air as to if Russia will veto it or not.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 12:06

How can you play dumb so committedly when it suits your rhetorical needs, yet still get upset when I call you dumb?

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 12:08

Cameron wrote:How can you play dumb so committedly when it suits your rhetorical needs, yet still get upset when I call you dumb?

I really am not "into" "I told you so", but here it is anyway.

As to your other comment, I really would like smart people like yourself to engage and explain things is a way I can understand, rather than what you do, which I see as "killing bad, must be Biden's fault because I hate his guts on other issues."

Russia and China on Friday vetoed a U.S. draft UN Security Council resolution that called for an "immediate and sustained ceasefire" in Gaza along with "the release of all remaining hostages" held by Hamas.

https://www.axios.com/2024/03/22/us-ceasefire-resolution-veto-un-security-council

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 12:16

Guess ol' Genocide Joe shouldn't have vetoed the last one then, eh?

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 12:20

Cameron wrote:Guess ol' Genocide Joe shouldn't have vetoed the last one then, eh?

As I said, no guarantee that it would pass if the US didn't veto it, as this vote shows.

Just as the House will pass stuff they know will fail in the Senate and vise-versa, the US veto's gave cover for how others voted.

Without the US veto Russia & China had to show their true colors, and they vetoed together to hide with each other.

However, I will be Machiavellian enough to think that maybe the US knew they would veto and thus didn't have to veto themselves, politics is a dirty game in which you never really know who is on which side.

by AvgMSUJoe 2024-03-22, 13:46

Beat me to this news. Assumed Cam was going to blame Biden no matter what. Not disappointed.

(well, disappointed, not surprised... Fuzzy Bear has his claws in that one. Dasvidaniya, Comrade)

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 13:59

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Beat me to this news. Assumed Cam was going to blame Biden no matter what. Not disappointed.

(well, disappointed, not surprised... Fuzzy Bear has his claws in that one. Dasvidaniya, Comrade)

Found a VOX explanation that claims the US has been vetoing these to keep negotiations between Israel and others open. This claim is if too harsh a resolution is passed then countries involved in working out a deal may just take a hike.

Not sure I buy that, but that is what it says.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 14:06

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Beat me to this news. Assumed Cam was going to blame Biden no matter what. Not disappointed.

(well, disappointed, not surprised... Fuzzy Bear has his claws in that one. Dasvidaniya, Comrade)

Blow me.

by **DWags** 2024-03-22, 14:56

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Beat me to this news. Assumed Cam was going to blame Biden no matter what. Not disappointed.

(well, disappointed, not surprised... Fuzzy Bear has his claws in that one. Dasvidaniya, Comrade)

Yeah. Just not worth it to me anymore.
It’s like those iSpartans after an msu loss. You’re pissed at what’s happening, you’d love a calm discourse with fellow Spartans, but they’ll add to you’re misery in the wrong that is happening by saying Izzo Sucks, we need a new coach , burn it down. (A d please there is no way I’m comparing a worthless sporting event to something this traumatic or important). It’s just easier to try not to engage.

And can you go right ahead a d tell me to blow you, to fuck off or that I suck. It’s cool.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 16:06

DWags wrote:
AvgMSUJoe wrote:Beat me to this news. Assumed Cam was going to blame Biden no matter what. Not disappointed.

(well, disappointed, not surprised... Fuzzy Bear has his claws in that one. Dasvidaniya, Comrade)

Yeah. Just not worth it to me anymore.
It’s like those iSpartans after an msu loss. You’re pissed at what’s happening, you’d love a calm discourse with fellow Spartans, but they’ll add to you’re misery in the wrong that is happening by saying Izzo Sucks, we need a new coach , burn it down. (A d please there is no way I’m comparing a worthless sporting event to something this traumatic or important). It’s just easier to try not to engage.

And can you go right ahead a d tell me to blow you, to fuck off or that I suck. It’s cool.

If you wanna accuse me of white privilege or being some kind of Russia dupe or whatever other nonsense you dipshits keep coming up with, I'm gonna respond in a very predictable way. I am barely capable of respectful disagreement as it is, but if you throw shade at me, I will throw it back harder.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 16:29

Cameron wrote:
DWags wrote:

Yeah. Just not worth it to me anymore.
It’s like those iSpartans after an msu loss. You’re pissed at what’s happening, you’d love a calm discourse with fellow Spartans, but they’ll add to you’re misery in the wrong that is happening by saying Izzo Sucks, we need a new coach , burn it down. (A d please there is no way I’m comparing a worthless sporting event to something this traumatic or important). It’s just easier to try not to engage.

And can you go right ahead a d tell me to blow you, to fuck off or that I suck. It’s cool.
If you wanna accuse me of white privilege or being some kind of Russia dupe or whatever other nonsense you dipshits keep coming up with, I'm gonna respond in a very predictable way. I am barely capable of respectful disagreement as it is, but if you throw shade at me, I will throw it back harder.

Blaming Biden for something that a political enemy of his, Netanyahu, is doing just seems dumb of you, to me.

It is also part of a obvious disinformation campaign that Putin, in support of Trump, is running, even if you are not being influenced by it.

It isn't a comment on you, other than you are human, just like everyone else, to point that out.

There is tons of propaganda which each one of us is influenced by. No matter how much of support of Biden stuff I am posting on here, I am holding back a ton more of it that is more emotional with fewer facts. I try to stick with the propaganda with a higher fact content.

You appear, to me anyway, to be blaming Biden for things that are out of his control, which isn't being fair to him.

You also keep suggesting that he take steps that he can't take without long term diplomacy first. You seem to want to ignore the special relationship the US and Israel have developed since 1948.

As one example of how important Israel is to the US in the mideast, our, the US's, short term armory in case of a mideast war, is located in Israel, something that the US must consider in its relationship during this time. (I found that out, BTW, do to doing internet research due to this thread). There are also US laws regarding Israel which Biden must follow and treaties & other agreements between the US & Israel that must be honored.

In other words, the relationship is complex and Biden has to take all that into account in what he does.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 16:54

He is not obligated to veto UN resolutions or bypass Congress to sell weapons to Israel, and Netanyahu didn't make him do it, he has decided to do those things.

It simply comes down to I want him to do more, and you guys don't. As far as I'm concerned, whether or not he could do more is not a matter of debate (whether or not doing more would actually end the genocide IS a matter of debate, but "he might fail, so he shouldn't try" is the most Democrat shit I can imagine), and anyone who says it is has ulterior motives.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-22, 17:21

Cameron wrote:He is not obligated to veto UN resolutions or bypass Congress to sell weapons to Israel, and Netanyahu didn't make him do it, he has decided to do those things.

It simply comes down to I want him to do more, and you guys don't. As far as I'm concerned, whether or not he could do more is not a matter of debate (whether or not doing more would actually end the genocide IS a matter of debate, but "he might fail, so he shouldn't try" is the most Democrat shit I can imagine), and anyone who says it is has ulterior motives.

Okay, stop being an asshole and downvoting everyone you disagree with. It is childish and should be beneath everyone in a political discussion.

As best as I can tell, and it is complex, Biden is providing certain defensive weapons, such as Iron Dome components, which, since the US has its major armory in Israel, provide protection for that, too.

I have seen speculation that the US is selling some of that armory to Israel, however that is not confirmed by anyone that I have found.

The US also has deployed at least one, and maybe two, battle fleets to the Red Sea to provide additional protection of Israel, and Red Sea shipping, from attacks, some of which have been successfully pressed even with the US fleet protection, but many which have failed because the fleet stopped them.

Israel is a net exporter of arms, and other than the high tech stuff in Iron Dome, and not having a Navy with combat level of the US Navy is very capable of conducting the invasion of Gaza with zero US supplies or help.

Any replenishment of the US armory is more to maintain the US presence than to assist Israel's offensive operations.

So given all that there are limited actions Biden can take and hundreds of mitigating circumstances in the US/ Israel relationship which limit what Biden can or cannot do.

You wish he would do more, fair enough if somewhat uninformed.

I hope he is doing everything he can, just as uninformed.

I see having one of the best and most experienced politicians in charge a positive and an assurance that he is doing the best that can be done. You don't seem to agree.

We both do agree that what Israel is doing to Gaza is reprehensible and want them to stop creating so much collateral damage.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-22, 19:36

by **kingstonlake** 2024-03-23, 07:20

The final U.S. resolution eliminated language in the initial draft that said Israel’s offensive in Rafah “should not proceed under current circumstances.”

by **Cameron** 2024-03-23, 11:18

Why US Ceasefire Proposal Failed At UNSC

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-23, 11:42

Cameron wrote:Why US Ceasefire Proposal Failed At UNSC

Decent article, BTW, not sure what the publisher POV is...

So now it is Biden's fault that others will not aline with what the US supports when before it was Biden's fault that the US would not accept other countries demands cartblanc.

Odd to me that it is always Biden's fault even when other countries are vetoing a cease fire resolution.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-23, 11:49

Weird that the guy in charge gets blame when things go poorly.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-23, 11:58

Cameron wrote:Weird that the guy in charge gets blame when things go poorly.

With at least 5 other countries with veto power there are at least 5 "guys in charge". At a minimum Biden should only be blamed partially, with each country with veto power getting an equal share.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-23, 12:02

"They should all share the blame for the insufficiency of the Biden Administration's proposal."

There's that commitment to playing dumb again...

by **kingstonlake** 2024-03-23, 12:50

Trapper Gus wrote:
Cameron wrote:Why US Ceasefire Proposal Failed At UNSC

Decent article, BTW, not sure what the publisher POV is...

So now it is Biden's fault that others will not aline with what the US supports when before it was Biden's fault that the US would not accept other countries demands cartblanc.

Odd to me that it is always Biden's fault even when other countries are vetoing a cease fire resolution.

As a non combatant country it would seem objective #1 would be to stop the killing via ceasefire.

Unless of course you have a monetary interest in keeping it going.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-23, 12:57

Cameron wrote:"They should all share the blame for the insufficiency of the Biden Administration's proposal."

There's that commitment to playing dumb again...

You & I have no idea of who is playing games here. If Russia & China hadn't vetoed it, who BTW should have no skin in this game, so why did they veto it, would some other veto power have done so?

Did Russia & China act on Iran's request, Iran being the power behind Hamas? It would seem like a reasonable assumption. So why doesn't Hamas want a crease fire?

by **Cameron** 2024-03-25, 14:24

Israel cancels White House visit after US doesn't block UN ceasefire vote

Mark Lyall-Grant, the UK's former Permanent Representative to the UN, says today marks a "significant shift" in the US position on the war in Gaza.

The last horse finally crosses the finish line. Better late than never, I suppose.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-25, 15:24

Israel's current government is having a cow about this. How much will they be campaigning for Trump going forward?

by Zurn 2024-03-26, 08:33

kingstonlake wrote:

As a non combatant country it would seem objective #1 would be to stop the killing via ceasefire.

In this instance, non combatant countries have the choice of supporting terrorists that have vowed to eliminate an ethnic group from a region OR supporting a democracy fighting against them.

Please spare me your "both sides are at fault" bullshit.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-03-26, 08:46

Zurn wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:

As a non combatant country it would seem objective #1 would be to stop the killing via ceasefire.

In this instance, non combatant countries have the choice of supporting terrorists that have vowed to eliminate an ethnic group from a region OR supporting a democracy fighting against them.

Please spare me your "both sides are at fault" bullshit.

The government of Israel is being run by a faction who have no interest in a two-state solution. They are being far more destructive and far less careful regarding not killing people than they easily could be.

In the decades long war both sides are equally at fault.

by **Cameron** 2024-03-28, 23:14

[tw]1773528404916060458?s=20[/tw]

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2024-03-29, 06:18

Zurn wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:

As a non combatant country it would seem objective #1 would be to stop the killing via ceasefire.

Please spare me your "both sides are at fault" bullshit.

just because it hurts your christian feelings doesn't mean it isn't true.

Both sides are at fault.

Oh, and the side you're pulling for Rolling Eyes

is participating in genocide.

by Zurn 2024-03-29, 08:45

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Oh, and the side you're pulling for is participating in genocide.

How is that genocide coming along? On October 7 there were about 5.5 million Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank. How many are there now? Given the genocide I suspect many less.

by **Motown Spartan** 2024-03-29, 08:50

Zurn wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Oh, and the side you're pulling for is participating in genocide.

How is that genocide coming along? On October 7 there were about 5.5 million Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank. How many are there now? Given the genocide I suspect many less.

Great point, thanks for bringing it up.

About 3.5 million remain, most of which have fled. So it’s working! Go genocide!

by Zurn 2024-03-29, 09:02

Motown Spartan wrote:

About 3.5 million remain, most of which have fled. So it’s working! Go genocide!

Well, first of all, genocide generally refers to killing people not fleeing people.

Second of all, of the people that have fled, the vast vast vast majority are still in Gaza and so my number remains correct with about 5 1/2 million people still living in Gaza and the West Bank

As I have posted many times, on the left the narrative is key, not the truth. The narrative is that there is a genocide happening in Palestine. The truth is that the same number of people live in Gaza and the West Bank today as were there on Oct 7.

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