Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/05/14/biden-china-tariff-ev-solar/

President Biden will announce Tuesday that he is quadrupling tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles to 100 percent and imposing new levies on computer chips, solar cells and lithium-ion batteries in a bid to prevent a flood of low-cost Chinese products from swamping his hopes of reviving domestic manufacturing.

kingstonlake wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/05/14/biden-china-tariff-ev-solar/

President Biden will announce Tuesday that he is quadrupling tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles to 100 percent and imposing new levies on computer chips, solar cells and lithium-ion batteries in a bid to prevent a flood of low-cost Chinese products from swamping his hopes of reviving domestic manufacturing.

I need some help.

am I supposed to be supportive of this or outraged by it?

I’m assuming the US only having access to like 50 EV models while places like china have over 200 to choose from might present a problem.

The median EV costs 70k while the median US salary is like 65k. Probably gonna be forced into more expensive EV’s is my guess.

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/02/electric-cars-us-policy-chinese-imports-prices

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Dude I'm an engineer,  we invented nerdy.

From your 5 month old link:

From the title of said link:

"Ford cuts EV planned F-150 EV production in half"

Trucks are what Ford does.  The ICE F150 is the #1 selling truck in America for 46 years straight.  Spin all you want, but if Ford is cutting EV F150s, that is NOT a good sign for them.

So the article says both they are cutting F150 production, 5 months ago, and that they are selling more than last year by 97%.

Makes me wonder how they do thier market projections.

Meanwhile GM is launching their replacement for the Bolt in the next couple of months at a starting price in the low 30k range.

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

From the title of said link:



Trucks are what Ford does.  The ICE F150 is the #1 selling truck in America for 46 years straight.  Spin all you want, but if Ford is cutting EV F150s, that is NOT a good sign for them.

So the article says both they are cutting F150 production, 5 months ago, and that they are selling more than last year by 97%.

Makes me wonder how they do thier market projections.

Meanwhile GM is launching their replacement for the Bolt in the next couple of months at a starting price in the low 30k range.

The Bolt?!?

You know, you never hear people bragging about their Bolt. You never have a neighbor come over to show off his Bolt. People don't talk about saving up to someday live the dream and buy a Bolt.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

So the article says both they are cutting F150 production, 5 months ago, and that they are selling more than last year by 97%.

Makes me wonder how they do thier market projections.

Meanwhile GM is launching their replacement for the Bolt in the next couple of months at a starting price in the low 30k range.

The Bolt?!?

You know, you never hear people bragging about their Bolt. You never have a neighbor come over to show off his Bolt. People don't talk about saving up to someday live the dream and buy a Bolt.

You don't hear people but then how many Bolt owners do you know, or EV owners at all. The point being that GM is marketing a less expensive EV than the $60k types now on the market, and so, for that matter is Tesla.

If GM was making money on the Bolt, they wouldn't have discontinued it.

Zurn wrote:If GM was making money on the Bolt, they wouldn't have discontinued it.  

GM discontinued the Bolt because it uses a battery tech that they don't want to keep producing.

With the pace of EV tech development there will be a constant turn over in vehicles as less expensive and better techs are developed.

The Bolt being based on that old EV engineering means that GM is still making money on vehicle development work that was done years ago, said Moody. Hence, the low prices and, from that, renewed popularity. For customers who don’t need the latest stuff, it’s a good fit.

“I think they did the math and the math says there’s enough people that want that that it could be worthwhile,” said Moody.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/26/business/chevrolet-bolt-sales/index.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/29/why-gm-is-killing-the-chevy-bolt-ev-amid-record-sales.html

Prediction of falling battery prices that seems pretty optimistic.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/E-car-batteries-face-a-price-drop-of-up-to-75-percent.838552.0.html

Trapper Gus wrote:

Zurn wrote:If GM was making money on the Bolt, they wouldn't have discontinued it.  

GM discontinued the Bolt because it uses a battery tech that they don't want to keep producing.

Then just swap in new battery tech and keep making a car that is making money for you. Just like they did with my Terrain, my old one had an old school V6, my new one a turbocharged 4.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

GM discontinued the Bolt because it uses a battery tech that they don't want to keep producing.

Then just swap in new battery tech and keep making a car that is making money for you. Just like they did with my Terrain, my old one had an old school V6, my new one a turbocharged 4.

Please tell me you work in a non technical field, and one that doesn't involve marketing.

BEV's are pretty much designed around the form of the battery so swaping a battery out with a new battery design adds cost to the vehicle, rather than matching the vehicle design with the battery.

Or just keep using the old tech if it was making you money. GM was still making pushrod V8s into the 2020s.

Zurn wrote:Or just keep using the old tech if it was making you money.   GM was still making pushrod V8s into the 2020s.

That strategy is known as allowing the future to put you out of business.

The US OEM's tried that in the 1960's and 1970's and the Japanese Car Companies ate their lunch.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Zurn wrote:Or just keep using the old tech if it was making you money.   GM was still making pushrod V8s into the 2020s.

That strategy is known as allowing the future to put you out of business.

The US OEM's tried that in the 1960's and 1970's and the Japanese Car Companies ate their lunch.

Oh really? What new tech were Japanese car companies using in the 60s and 70s that led to their success?

We're going to need more copper.

Researchers say a copper shortage could imperil Michigan’s EV future

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

That strategy is known as allowing the future to put you out of business.

The US OEM's tried that in the 1960's and 1970's and the Japanese Car Companies ate their lunch.

Oh really? What new tech were Japanese car companies using in the 60s and 70s that led to their success?

Your too young & dumb to remember when other than the odd VW all cars were from US OEMs.

Between 1960 to 1980 Japan imports changed that big time with various improvements and a willingness to build cars people wanted to drive.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Zurn wrote:

Oh really?   What new tech were Japanese car companies using in the 60s and 70s that led to their success?  

Your too young & dumb to remember when other than the odd VW all cars were from US OEMs.

Between 1960 to 1980 Japan imports changed that big time with various improvements and a willingness to build cars people wanted to drive.

People wanted to drive small foreign econboxes like they wanted to turn down their thermostats and put on a sweater.   There was nothing particularly innovative about Japanese cars other than that they were small and fuel efficient.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Your too young & dumb to remember when other than the odd VW all cars were from US OEMs.

Between 1960 to 1980 Japan imports changed that big time with various improvements and a willingness to build cars people wanted to drive.

People wanted to drive small foreign econboxes like they wanted to turn down their thermostats and put on a sweater.   There was nothing particularly innovative about Japanese cars other than that they were small and fuel efficient.

Price was factor, sure, and gas prices helped.  Don't remember and could be confusing motors with motorcycles but did the Japanese cars have aluminum blocks & heads plus overhead cams?

A race car mechanic I knew at the time was very dismissive of "old" US engine tech verses the Japanese engines.

Marketing wise with shipping from Japan it was much more an off the lot buy with way fewer options than build to order the the US OEM's were doing.

Originally they had durability issues compared to US cars but by 1980 that had been fixed.

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

People wanted to drive small foreign econboxes like they wanted to turn down their thermostats and put on a sweater.   There was nothing particularly innovative about Japanese cars other than that they were small and fuel efficient.

Price was factor, sure, and gas prices helped. Don't remember and could be confusing motors with motorcycles but did the Japanese cars have aluminum blocks & heads plus overhead cams?

Marketing wise with shipping from Japan it was much more an off the lot buy with way fewer options than build to order the the US OEM's were doing.

OHC, aluminum blocks and heads were all done by the Americans in the 60’s and 70’s. That didn’t differentiate the Japanese in any way.

And not being able to custom order exactly what you wanted wasn’t exactly a positive thing for the foreign manufacturers.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Price was factor, sure, and gas prices helped. Don't remember and could be confusing motors with motorcycles but did the Japanese cars have aluminum blocks & heads plus overhead cams?

Marketing wise with shipping from Japan it was much more an off the lot buy with way fewer options than build to order the the US OEM's were doing.

OHC, aluminum blocks and heads were all done by the Americans in the 60’s and 70’s. That didn’t differentiate the Japanese in any way.

And not being able to custom order exactly what you wanted wasn’t exactly a positive thing for the foreign manufacturers.

Think the US was following the Japanese on that, the first US aluminum engine I remember was the Chevy Vaga, and it was a durability disaster.

My dad was an engineer for Ford for 38 years starting in the 60s and worked for years jointly with Mazda when Ford owned 1/3 of Mazda. It was no secret within the Big 3 why the Japanese cars skyrocketed in popularity.

They were cheaper and they were built better.

The Japanese got it right the first time.  When an American car came off the line, it would need to go through fit and finish to make sure all the screws were tight and the gaps were even. That wasn’t the case with Japanese automakers. When they came off the line, they were showroom ready.  

So, instead of improving their products and lowering their costs, they went all in with the Made In America campaign.

When we were supply parts to the Amsrican OEMs & Honda Marysville the method of dealing with misbuilds was starkly different.  

The US OEM plants had a repair shop at the end of the line.

Honda moved the vehicle back to station on the line where it was misbuilt and required the people who did it wrong to repair it.

Motown Spartan wrote:My dad was an engineer for Ford for 38 years starting in the 60s and worked for years jointly with Mazda when Ford owned 1/3 of Mazda. It was no secret within the Big 3 why the Japanese cars skyrocketed in popularity.

They were cheaper and they were built better.

The Japanese got it right the first time.  When an American car came off the line, it would need to go through fit and finish to make sure all the screws were tight and the gaps were even. That wasn’t the case with Japanese automakers. When they came off the line, they were showroom ready.  

So, instead of improving their products and lowering their costs, they went all in with the Made In America campaign.

America.. fuck yeah!

A Honda Civic was the first car I had that easily blew past 150k miles (kind of given to the wife and I because a self respecting kid from mid-Michigan wouldn't drive no foreign... the thing went forever, then got a decent trade value)... American cars USED to be complete ass durability-wise. In high school, every weekend I was fixing a starter or alternator or radiator or just other parts rusting off... I put more work into my escorts and cavaliers then my buddies with muscle cars put into their "fun" cars to work on.

That said my kid is driving a 2012 Malibu I commuted in when it was new... its at like 260k and still getting him back and forth to CMU. The most I put into it was $1200 timing belt and guides like 3 year ago. That has been the best car I've owned I think.

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

OHC, aluminum blocks and heads were all done by the Americans in the 60’s and 70’s.  That didn’t differentiate the Japanese in any way.

And not being able to custom order exactly what you wanted wasn’t exactly a positive thing for the foreign manufacturers.  

Think the US was following the Japanese on that, the first US aluminum engine I remember was the Chevy Vaga, and it was a durability disaster.

Nope.  AMC did it in 1961 in the Rambler.

Also, it’s “Vega” not Vaga.

For someone who works in the industry, you sure don’t know shit about cars.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Think the US was following the Japanese on that, the first US aluminum engine I remember was the Chevy Vaga, and it was a durability disaster.

Nope.  AMC did it in 1961 in the Rambler.

Also, it’s “Vega” not Vaga.

For someone who works in the industry, you sure don’t know shit about cars.

Oh please, you don't know shit about much, either.

1961 Rambler, how did that work out for all those exPackard engineers?

My bil, who owned a 1972 version, didn't really care Rambler had face planted 11 years before.

Of course many of the WW2 aircraft engines, built in Detroit, were aluminum.

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

Nope.  AMC did it in 1961 in the Rambler.

Also, it’s “Vega” not Vaga.

For someone who works in the industry, you sure don’t know shit about cars.

Oh please, you don't know shit about much, either.

1961 Rambler, how did that work out for all those exPackard engineers?

My bil, who owned a 1972 version, didn't really care Rambler had face planted 11 years before.

Of course many of the WW2 aircraft engines, built in Detroit, were aluminum.

I might not know much, but I would go car trivia night against you for all the moneys.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Oh please, you don't know shit about much, either.

1961 Rambler, how did that work out for all those exPackard engineers?

My bil, who owned a 1972 version, didn't really care Rambler had face planted 11 years before.

Of course many of the WW2 aircraft engines, built in Detroit, were aluminum.

I might not know much, but I would go car trivia night against you for all the moneys.  

How is your Packard knowledge?

And tell us more about this aluminum Rambler

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

I might not know much, but I would go car trivia night against you for all the moneys.  

How is your Packard knowledge?

And tell us more about this aluminum Rambler

What do you want to know about Packards? They were fine automobiles until they merged with Stupidbaker. Nobody wanted to drive a Studebaker. Those things were worse than your Chevy Bolt for trying to get laid.

AMC aluminum block info:
http://amcrc.com/feature/alum_eng.html

Kind of a neat little engine, but it suffered the same as many early attempts, in that they paired it with an iron cylinder head without fully understanding the metallurgical effects.

That merger was part of a plan to create a rival to GM but the guy leading it died and George Romney took over.  He didn't have the vision thing so we ended up with AMC not being what it was planned to be.

Packard was a high end luxury brand until they began losing their way in the 1930's by creating a down market line.  The 1941 Clipper Custom was their last go at classic styling but the war cut them short.  After the war they refreshed the body with the 48/49/50 "bath tubs" and began introducing a V8 in the early 1950's.  The luxury market left them behind because they had diluted the brand and then they became part of the AMC merger plan that went south.

Fun fact - in the movie Patten the general is taxied to a London Hotel in a 1948 Packard lwb taxi...in 1944.  No, that car didn't exist then.

Your Bolt isn’t doing so hot.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/chevy-bolt-ev-owners-getting-150m-because-their-batteries-are-great-big-lighters

TravelinMan wrote:Your Bolt isn’t doing so hot.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/chevy-bolt-ev-owners-getting-150m-because-their-batteries-are-great-big-lighters

It's GM's Bolt, so unless you think I own GM you have a pronoun problem.

Interesting timing with the 100% tariff

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/china-develops-revolutionary-electric-car-113440354.html#:~:text=The%20IEA's%20Global%20Critical%20Minerals,this%20year%2C%20the%20IEA%20said.

China has developed a revolutionary car battery that can charge in just 10 minutes and power a car for hundreds of miles before it needs to be plugged in.

The IEA highlighted EV batteries capable of travelling 250 miles without a recharge. Newer versions announced since the report was written can manage 600 miles.

However, the agency raised the alarm about China’s increasing dominance of the supply of vital materials needed to build batteries. The country’s stranglehold on supply chains means net zero rollouts globally could be disrupted by “extreme weather, trade disputes or geopolitics”.

kingstonlake wrote:Interesting timing with the 100% tariff

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/china-develops-revolutionary-electric-car-113440354.html#:~:text=The%20IEA's%20Global%20Critical%20Minerals,this%20year%2C%20the%20IEA%20said.

China has developed a revolutionary car battery that can charge in just 10 minutes and power a car for hundreds of miles before it needs to be plugged in.

The IEA highlighted EV batteries capable of travelling 250 miles without a recharge. Newer versions announced since the report was written can manage 600 miles.

However, the agency raised the alarm about China’s increasing dominance of the supply of vital materials needed to build batteries. The country’s stranglehold on supply chains means net zero rollouts globally could be disrupted by “extreme weather, trade disputes or geopolitics”.

This exact battery tech has been in the EV news for months.  There seem to be dozens of press releases about battery charging rates & capacity on the lines every day, about 80% from China.

There are also another running set of press releases regarding discoveries of new locations of critical raw materials mostly outside of China.

Everyone is petrified of the Chinese, primarily because there is a general feeling that every industry in China is heavily subsidized by the central government. Those concerns are real. Globally, the auto sector accounts for about 5 percent of the word’s economy and employs an estimated 50 million people either directly or indirectly. A massive disruption of the industry would send shock waves through the entire world economy. Those shock waves in turn could lead to political upheavals that destabilize several governments.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/05/18/catl-shenxing-battery-strikes-fear-into-the-hearts-of-governments-automakers/amp/

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

That strategy is known as allowing the future to put you out of business.

The US OEM's tried that in the 1960's and 1970's and the Japanese Car Companies ate their lunch.

Oh really? What new tech were Japanese car companies using in the 60s and 70s that led to their success?

It's been a few days now. Did Trapper ever tell us about all the new tech that Japanese car companies used in the 60s and 70s?

Zurn wrote:

Zurn wrote:

Oh really?   What new tech were Japanese car companies using in the 60s and 70s that led to their success?  

It's been a few days now.   Did Trapper ever tell us about all the new tech that Japanese car companies used in the 60s and 70s?  

Demming, to facilitate more advanced and less expensive tech than US companies were using, for mass production.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Zurn wrote:

It's been a few days now.   Did Trapper ever tell us about all the new tech that Japanese car companies used in the 60s and 70s?  

Demming, to facilitate more advanced and less expensive tech than US companies were using, for mass production.

So you didn't like the Rambler aluminum engine block, the Buick aluminum cylinder heads, or the Pontiac OHC. Now you've shifted to Kaizen assembly lines and their anti-union work force? I am kind of bewildered that you'd site Japanese assembly techniques given your deep and weirdly myopic love of labor unions.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Demming, to facilitate more advanced and less expensive tech than US companies were using, for mass production.

So you didn't like the Rambler aluminum engine block, the Buick aluminum cylinder heads, or the Pontiac OHC.  Now you've shifted to Kaizen assembly lines and their anti-union work force?  I am kind of bewildered that you'd site Japanese assembly techniques given your deep and weirdly myopic love of labor unions.

Why throw unions into this, especially since it isn't true?

From the early 1960s, most car workers' unions in Japan were part of one of two federations: the Federation of Japan Automobile Workers' Unions, led by the Nissan Union, and Zenkoku Jidosha, led by the Toyota Union, and established in 1962.

Demming's methods caused the Japanese to close the perceived quality and durability gaps with US manufacturers, so yes, they are a part of this discussion.

Are you saying those US aluminum engines were a resounding success, surprising they didn't continue them, then.

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

So you didn't like the Rambler aluminum engine block, the Buick aluminum cylinder heads, or the Pontiac OHC.  Now you've shifted to Kaizen assembly lines and their anti-union work force?  I am kind of bewildered that you'd site Japanese assembly techniques given your deep and weirdly myopic love of labor unions.

Why throw unions into this, especially since it isn't true?

From the early 1960s, most car workers' unions in Japan were part of one of two federations: the Federation of Japan Automobile Workers' Unions, led by the Nissan Union, and Zenkoku Jidosha, led by the Toyota Union, and established in 1962.

Demming's methods caused the Japanese to close the perceived quality and durability gaps with US manufacturers, so yes, they are a part of this discussion.

Are you saying those US aluminum engines were a resounding success, surprising they didn't continue them, then.

Oh Trapper, why oh why do you do this to yourself?

The Buick (BOP) 215 aluminum block V8 was first available in 1961. After it was discontinued in the US, the original, all-aluminum 215 version lived a long and prosperous life in the UK. Rights for the design were brought by Rover, who continued to produce and improve it until 2004.

Only 43 years. What a piece of shit.