Another Cop About to Get Away with Murder...

xsanguine wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
You are putting way too much emphasis on the person that the cops are murdering or beating the shit out of. To me it doesn't matter whatsoever who the person is or what they've done. The cops have to learn to control themselves... It's actually kind of amazing that they haven't considering the intense scrutiny. But they are so convinced that they are always right that I honestly don't think they give a shit. It's the only reason that I can think of for why this keeps happening. I mean, those cops with the horse.... THERE IS A GODDAMN NEWSCHOPPER RIGHT ABOVE YOU. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU THINKING? Like, seriously, how stupid are those people? They should be fired not only for the beating but for being complete idiots.

All that said, back to the original point where you seem to think that the make up of the victims matters. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. To me there is nothing that someone can do that warrants an unnecessary beating at the hands of a government employee. You apparently don't agree with that, and that's fine.

I agree with you that the police need to control themselves. But their actions pale in comparison to someone putting the public at risk.

The guy in SC that got shot in the back had fled twice and may have fought with the officer over the stun gun. Now sure... the officer could be lying... but we DO know that the guy was already willing to flee police and even take it off road. So it's clear the perp was not concerned with anyone's safety... it's not much of a stretch to suggest he did fight over the stun gun.

The guy in California lead those officers on a 2 1/2 hour car chase and then KIDNAPPED A FUCKING HORSE. Sure, the cops went overboard... 3 cops were injured in the pursuit. Those officers should be reprimanded for punching and kicking him, sure.

But this whole media frenzy over racial this or racial that is what is truly bullshit.

The fact remains... if these black men weren't committing crimes... they wouldn't be dealing with police. There's a REAL problem in this country and it's within the black community. It is NEVER addressed. But the dozen or so times a cop is caught punching someone who just strong arm robbed a liquor store or gets killed beating someone who just so happens to be carrying a firearm... or leads cops on a high speed chase endangering the lives of citizens and they punch and kick him.... that's what gets the attention and gives the impression that is the norm when it is NOT the norm.

To address the REAL norm... that is in the multi-thousands... is to be accused of racism.

The cops aren't allowed to beat the shit out of people just because they feel like it. I don't know why this is so complicated for you. That's all there is to it. They simply are not allowed to do that and it's insane to me that you would stand by and be okay with that. Everything else is just noise.

2 of the cops were injured by dehydration by the way. Maybe that should be pointed out.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

I agree with you that the police need to control themselves. But their actions pale in comparison to someone putting the public at risk.

The guy in SC that got shot in the back had fled twice and may have fought with the officer over the stun gun. Now sure... the officer could be lying... but we DO know that the guy was already willing to flee police and even take it off road. So it's clear the perp was not concerned with anyone's safety... it's not much of a stretch to suggest he did fight over the stun gun.

The guy in California lead those officers on a 2 1/2 hour car chase and then KIDNAPPED A FUCKING HORSE. Sure, the cops went overboard... 3 cops were injured in the pursuit. Those officers should be reprimanded for punching and kicking him, sure.

But this whole media frenzy over racial this or racial that is what is truly bullshit.

The fact remains... if these black men weren't committing crimes... they wouldn't be dealing with police. There's a REAL problem in this country and it's within the black community. It is NEVER addressed. But the dozen or so times a cop is caught punching someone who just strong arm robbed a liquor store or gets killed beating someone who just so happens to be carrying a firearm... or leads cops on a high speed chase endangering the lives of citizens and they punch and kick him.... that's what gets the attention and gives the impression that is the norm when it is NOT the norm.

To address the REAL norm... that is in the multi-thousands... is to be accused of racism.

The cops aren't allowed to beat the shit out of people just because they feel like it. I don't know why this is so complicated for you. That's all there is to it. They simply are not allowed to do that and it's insane to me that you would stand by and be okay with that. Everything else is just noise.

2 of the cops were injured by dehydration by the way. Maybe that should be pointed out.

I do understand that. I say that at the beginning of each post that I make on the subject.

What I don't understand is why NONE of the responsibility is being put on the individual who is the catalyst to creating the entire scenario in the first place. None. Zero. They are treated like innocent victims throughout the network media, throughout social media... everywhere.

Why are criminals coddled and treated like the victims in a situation that they themselves created?

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

So how should I judge the crime stats and the near perfectly correlated personal observations?

you can judge them however you want. That's the beauty of America (for now).

Bob, I'm asking you how I should judge the official crime statistics.

Because you've given the impression that my assessment of those statistics makes me a racist.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

I agree with you that the police need to control themselves. But their actions pale in comparison to someone putting the public at risk.

The guy in SC that got shot in the back had fled twice and may have fought with the officer over the stun gun. Now sure... the officer could be lying... but we DO know that the guy was already willing to flee police and even take it off road. So it's clear the perp was not concerned with anyone's safety... it's not much of a stretch to suggest he did fight over the stun gun.

The guy in California lead those officers on a 2 1/2 hour car chase and then KIDNAPPED A FUCKING HORSE. Sure, the cops went overboard... 3 cops were injured in the pursuit. Those officers should be reprimanded for punching and kicking him, sure.

But this whole media frenzy over racial this or racial that is what is truly bullshit.

The fact remains... if these black men weren't committing crimes... they wouldn't be dealing with police. There's a REAL problem in this country and it's within the black community. It is NEVER addressed. But the dozen or so times a cop is caught punching someone who just strong arm robbed a liquor store or gets killed beating someone who just so happens to be carrying a firearm... or leads cops on a high speed chase endangering the lives of citizens and they punch and kick him.... that's what gets the attention and gives the impression that is the norm when it is NOT the norm.

To address the REAL norm... that is in the multi-thousands... is to be accused of racism.

The cops aren't allowed to beat the shit out of people just because they feel like it. I don't know why this is so complicated for you. That's all there is to it. They simply are not allowed to do that and it's insane to me that you would stand by and be okay with that. Everything else is just noise.

2 of the cops were injured by dehydration by the way. Maybe that should be pointed out.

I'm not sure why people don't understand that unarmed black people shouldn't be murdered by those who are sworn to protect them.

unless, of course, there are reasons why those very people have no problem with unarmed black people being murdered. In which case, I wish they would just come out and say it instead of trying to convolute the issue to support their racist agenda.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
The cops aren't allowed to beat the shit out of people just because they feel like it. I don't know why this is so complicated for you. That's all there is to it. They simply are not allowed to do that and it's insane to me that you would stand by and be okay with that. Everything else is just noise.

2 of the cops were injured by dehydration by the way. Maybe that should be pointed out.

I'm not sure why people don't understand that unarmed black people shouldn't be murdered by those who are sworn to protect them.

unless, of course, there are reasons why those very people have no problem with unarmed black people being murdered. In which case, I wish they would just come out and say it instead of trying to convolute the issue to support their racist agenda.

When they've broken the law the police are no longer suppose to protect them but apprehend them. They should not be killing them unless those criminals attack them, certainly.... But when you are kidnapping innocent people's animals, stealing innocent people's property, selling illegal firearms out of your trunk, or fleeing the police after committing one of these crimes against innocent people, it is their job to catch them in order to protect innocent people from these criminals.

If you are going to commit violent crimes and then run from police officers who's job it is to then apprehend you and hold you responsible for committing these crimes against other people... there's a good chance you're going to be handled roughly.

Certainly we don't want them to be treated too roughly... and when they cross the line they should be punished. But there's no other way to apprehend violent criminals who are doing everything they possibly can not to be apprehended than with force, often times violent force.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
you can judge them however you want. That's the beauty of America (for now).

Bob, I'm asking you how I should judge the official crime statistics.

Because you've given the impression that my assessment of those statistics makes me a racist.

depends on the statistics you're looking at. As you know, statistics are often used to support various sides of a certain argument.

and, for the record, you're not one of the racists here at tSwill. I certainly believe you to be a good guy and you weren't one of the ones celebrating and dancing on the grave of Michael Brown or any of the other victims of police-on-black crime.

I just happen to think that there is a huge race problem in America and a huge problem with police perpetrating such beliefs on their victims. We can honor police for the jobs they do and commemorate the vast majority of those who do it fairly and with dignity while also denouncing those who use their power to abuse the powerless. These two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

as you know, we all have our views: some are learned views that have been gleaned from experiences within the environment that we were born into, raised in and been part of as we progress through life. Some are likely influenced by outside entities like the media, pop culture and the like. It's important that we all weigh our views and how they were formed and, subsequently, have evolved over the course of time through the prism of what we perceive our reality to be. Our reality is just that: our perception. Just as we are all flawed in our day-to-day lives, these flaws often reflected in our views. This is true for all of us.

xsanguine wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
The cops aren't allowed to beat the shit out of people just because they feel like it. I don't know why this is so complicated for you. That's all there is to it. They simply are not allowed to do that and it's insane to me that you would stand by and be okay with that. Everything else is just noise.

2 of the cops were injured by dehydration by the way. Maybe that should be pointed out.

I do understand that. I say that at the beginning of each post that I make on the subject.

What I don't understand is why NONE of the responsibility is being put on the individual who is the catalyst to creating the entire scenario in the first place. None. Zero. They are treated like innocent victims throughout the network media, throughout social media... everywhere.

Why are criminals coddled and treated like the victims in a situation that they themselves created?

Well, the answer to why the media does anything is always "because it generates more clicks, viewers, readers, etc which makes more money for them." So, I'm going to guess that's why.

As for me, I don't think I've really played that victim card. In fact, I pretty much leave them out of it altogether because the police officer is the paid agent of the state who is supposed to be a trained professional. They also happen to be the one that is typically beating the shit out of or murdering the other individual. So there's that part too.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm not sure why people don't understand that unarmed black people shouldn't be murdered by those who are sworn to protect them.

unless, of course, there are reasons why those very people have no problem with unarmed black people being murdered. In which case, I wish they would just come out and say it instead of trying to convolute the issue to support their racist agenda.

When they've broken the law the police are no longer suppose to protect them but apprehend them. They should not be killing them unless those criminals attack them, certainly.... But when you are kidnapping innocent people's animals, stealing innocent people's property, selling illegal firearms out of your trunk, or fleeing the police after committing one of these crimes against innocent people, it is their job to catch them in order to protect innocent people from these criminals.

It's not their job to decide the punishment of the individual. That's the judges job. If the judge decides that the best punishment is to senselessly beat the shit out of the guy, then their actions are warranted. Since that didn't happen, they are in the wrong. Sorry, the law is pretty black and white about not having Judge Dredd out there.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm not sure why people don't understand that unarmed black people shouldn't be murdered by those who are sworn to protect them.

unless, of course, there are reasons why those very people have no problem with unarmed black people being murdered. In which case, I wish they would just come out and say it instead of trying to convolute the issue to support their racist agenda.

When they've broken the law the police are no longer suppose to protect them but apprehend them. They should not be killing them unless those criminals attack them, certainly.... But when you are kidnapping innocent people's animals, stealing innocent people's property, selling illegal firearms out of your trunk, or fleeing the police after committing one of these crimes against innocent people, it is their job to catch them in order to protect innocent people from these criminals.

I'm certainly not a constitutional scholar, but it's not the police officer's responsibility to determine whether or not they're guilty of breaking the law.

and, if let's say we live in a communist country where a government official does have the right to apprehend you and determine your guilt or innocence on the spot, he still doesn't have the power and authority to administer the death penalty immediately.

Not yet, anyway.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Bob, I'm asking you how I should judge the official crime statistics.

Because you've given the impression that my assessment of those statistics makes me a racist.

depends on the statistics you're looking at. As you know, statistics are often used to support various sides of a certain argument.

and, for the record, you're not one of the racists here at tSwill. I certainly believe you to be a good guy and you weren't one of the ones celebrating and dancing on the grave of Michael Brown or any of the other victims of police-on-black crime.

I just happen to think that there is a huge race problem in America and a huge problem with police perpetrating such beliefs on their victims. We can honor police for the jobs they do and commemorate then vast majority of those who do it fairly and with dignity while also denouncing those who use their power to abuse the powerless. These two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

as you know, we all have our views: some are learned views that have been gleaned from experiences within the environment that we were born into, raised in and been part of as we progress through life. Some are likely influenced by outside entities like the media, pop culture and the like. It's important that we all weigh our views and how they were formed and, subsequently, have evolved over the course of time through the prism of what we perceive our reality to be. Our reality is just that: our perception. Just as we are all flawed in our day-to-day lives, these flaws often reflected in our views. This is true for all of us.

I'm looking at the crime statistics from American law enforcement that indicate that 12% of the population commits 52% of the murders in this country.
If you take that into account... the violent encounters with police are proportionate with the other communities.

The statistics seem to indicate that these encounters are all statistically proportionate... that there is no special attention given to that particular race.

"Academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey."

The statistics indicate it is not a white racist problem but a problem of violence specifically within the black community. The numbers match up exactly as they are suppose to according to the FBI and Bureau of Justice.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

When they've broken the law the police are no longer suppose to protect them but apprehend them. They should not be killing them unless those criminals attack them, certainly.... But when you are kidnapping innocent people's animals, stealing innocent people's property, selling illegal firearms out of your trunk, or fleeing the police after committing one of these crimes against innocent people, it is their job to catch them in order to protect innocent people from these criminals.

I'm certainly not a constitutional scholar, but it's not the police officer's responsibility to determine whether or not they're guilty of breaking the law.

and, if let's say we live in a communist country where a government official does have the right to apprehend you and determine your guilt or innocence on the spot, he still doesn't have the power and authority to administer the death penalty immediately.

Not yet, anyway.

Right, it's not their job to judge them. That's the courts.
But I didn't say it's their job to judge them, I said it's their job to apprehend them. If you are fighting that apprehension the police officer is not suppose to just give up and let you go on your merry way. The response necessary to apprehend someone that is escalating the violence is now going to see an escalated response from police to apprehend them.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:depends on the statistics you're looking at. As you know, statistics are often used to support various sides of a certain argument.

and, for the record, you're not one of the racists here at tSwill. I certainly believe you to be a good guy and you weren't one of the ones celebrating and dancing on the grave of Michael Brown or any of the other victims of police-on-black crime.

I just happen to think that there is a huge race problem in America and a huge problem with police perpetrating such beliefs on their victims. We can honor police for the jobs they do and commemorate then vast majority of those who do it fairly and with dignity while also denouncing those who use their power to abuse the powerless. These two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

as you know, we all have our views: some are learned views that have been gleaned from experiences within the environment that we were born into, raised in and been part of as we progress through life. Some are likely influenced by outside entities like the media, pop culture and the like. It's important that we all weigh our views and how they were formed and, subsequently, have evolved over the course of time through the prism of what we perceive our reality to be. Our reality is just that: our perception. Just as we are all flawed in our day-to-day lives, these flaws often reflected in our views. This is true for all of us.

I'm looking at the crime statistics from American law enforcement that indicate that 12% of the population commits 52% of the murders in this country.
If you take that into account... the violent encounters with police are proportionate with the other communities.

The statistics seem to indicate that these encounters are all statistically proportionate... that there is no special attention given to that particular race.

"Academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey."

The statistics indicate it is not a white racist problem but a problem of violence specifically within the black community. The numbers match up exactly as they are suppose to according to the FBI and Bureau of Justice.

you have more faith in statistics compiled by the government than I do.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

When they've broken the law the police are no longer suppose to protect them but apprehend them. They should not be killing them unless those criminals attack them, certainly.... But when you are kidnapping innocent people's animals, stealing innocent people's property, selling illegal firearms out of your trunk, or fleeing the police after committing one of these crimes against innocent people, it is their job to catch them in order to protect innocent people from these criminals.

It's not their job to decide the punishment of the individual. That's the judges job. If the judge decides that the best punishment is to senselessly beat the shit out of the guy, then their actions are warranted. Since that didn't happen, they are in the wrong. Sorry, the law is pretty black and white about not having Judge Dredd out there.

The law is pretty black and white as to what is acceptable in society as a citizen... and being involved in violent crime is not acceptable in society. You are going to be apprehended and when you fight that apprehension you are requiring an escalated response from police to apprehend you.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm certainly not a constitutional scholar, but it's not the police officer's responsibility to determine whether or not they're guilty of breaking the law.

and, if let's say we live in a communist country where a government official does have the right to apprehend you and determine your guilt or innocence on the spot, he still doesn't have the power and authority to administer the death penalty immediately.

Not yet, anyway.

Right, it's not their job to judge them. That's the courts.
But I didn't say it's their job to judge them, I said it's their job to apprehend them. If you are fighting that apprehension the police officer is not suppose to just give up and let you go on your merry way. The response necessary to apprehend someone that is escalating the violence is now going to see an escalated response from police to apprehend them.

you said that the individual in question had "broken the law" - the police officer doesn't know whether or not they have broken the law. That is determined in the courts.

now the police officer - a government employee - can suspect the individual of breaking the law. Then that suspicion, as we see, can lead the government employee down a number of nefarious paths. And certainly some more pious ones, as well.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm certainly not a constitutional scholar, but it's not the police officer's responsibility to determine whether or not they're guilty of breaking the law.

and, if let's say we live in a communist country where a government official does have the right to apprehend you and determine your guilt or innocence on the spot, he still doesn't have the power and authority to administer the death penalty immediately.

Not yet, anyway.

Right, it's not their job to judge them. That's the courts.
But I didn't say it's their job to judge them, I said it's their job to apprehend them. If you are fighting that apprehension the police officer is not suppose to just give up and let you go on your merry way. The response necessary to apprehend someone that is escalating the violence is now going to see an escalated response from police to apprehend them.

Yeah, except they tend to beat the shit out of people AFTER they've apprehended them. So, those whole post has nothing to do with anything.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

I'm looking at the crime statistics from American law enforcement that indicate that 12% of the population commits 52% of the murders in this country.
If you take that into account... the violent encounters with police are proportionate with the other communities.

The statistics seem to indicate that these encounters are all statistically proportionate... that there is no special attention given to that particular race.

"Academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey."

The statistics indicate it is not a white racist problem but a problem of violence specifically within the black community. The numbers match up exactly as they are suppose to according to the FBI and Bureau of Justice.

you have more faith in statistics compiled by the government than I do.

So you're saying that there's a conspiracy? That the government is specifically fudging numbers to the tune of 7-1? That would be a biggest conspiracy in the history of our nation if not the world. That would be an undertaking of every police jurisdiction in the nation that would include tens and tens of thousands of people from all races.

Where are the hidden victims of these unreported white crimes? Why would there be a surplus of black victims to black crimes? Why isn't this being done to hispanics, asians, arabs, jews, or any other culture/race?

We need evidence if we're going to be making these kinds of accusations.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Right, it's not their job to judge them. That's the courts.
But I didn't say it's their job to judge them, I said it's their job to apprehend them. If you are fighting that apprehension the police officer is not suppose to just give up and let you go on your merry way. The response necessary to apprehend someone that is escalating the violence is now going to see an escalated response from police to apprehend them.

Yeah, except they tend to beat the shit out of people AFTER they've apprehended them. So, those whole post has nothing to do with anything.

Maybe you're right. Maybe we're being too mean to murderers, rapists, kidnappers, armed robbers, etc.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:you have more faith in statistics compiled by the government than I do.

So you're saying that there's a conspiracy? That the government is specifically fudging numbers to the tune of 7-1? That would be a biggest conspiracy in the history of our nation if not the world. That would be an undertaking of every police jurisdiction in the nation that would include tens and tens of thousands of people from all races.

Where are the hidden victims of these unreported white crimes? Why would there be a surplus of black victims to black crimes? Why isn't this being done to hispanics, asians, arabs, jews, or any other culture/race?

We need evidence if we're going to be making these kinds of accusations.

I didn't accuse anyone of anything... I simply said that you have more faith in statistics compiled by the government than I do.

xsanguine wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Yeah, except they tend to beat the shit out of people AFTER they've apprehended them. So, those whole post has nothing to do with anything.

Maybe you're right. Maybe we're being too mean to murderers, rapists, kidnappers, armed robbers, etc.

Nothing to do with it. Again. The choice of how mean we are to anyone (also whether the person actually is any of those things for that matter) is not the cops choice to make. Period. End of story.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Right, it's not their job to judge them. That's the courts.
But I didn't say it's their job to judge them, I said it's their job to apprehend them. If you are fighting that apprehension the police officer is not suppose to just give up and let you go on your merry way. The response necessary to apprehend someone that is escalating the violence is now going to see an escalated response from police to apprehend them.

you said that the individual in question had "broken the law" - the police officer doesn't know whether or not they have broken the law. That is determined in the courts.

now the police officer - a government employee - can suspect the individual of breaking the law. Then that suspicion, as we see, can lead the government employee down a number of nefarious paths. And certainly some more pious ones, as well.

Correct. But when you catch someone on a stolen horse after you witnessed them steal someone's car and race it through the streets of California... it's difficult to act like it didn't happen.

When you're running a sting operation and watching someone take illegal firearms out of their trunk and start naming prices off to an undercover agent and then runs when confronted... it's a bit difficult to act like it didn't occur.

In order to prove a crime in court you need to apprehend the individual first. If you just let every criminal go when they decide to run from you... our courts aren't going to have much to do.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Maybe you're right. Maybe we're being too mean to murderers, rapists, kidnappers, armed robbers, etc.

Nothing to do with it. Again. The choice of how mean we are to anyone (also whether the person actually is any of those things for that matter) is not the cops choice to make. Period. End of story.

That's what I said. Instead of being rough with them... the police need to be nicer to them regardless of what they did.

xsanguine wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Yeah, except they tend to beat the shit out of people AFTER they've apprehended them. So, those whole post has nothing to do with anything.

Maybe you're right. Maybe we're being too mean to murderers, rapists, kidnappers, armed robbers, etc.

Unless they are caught red handed in the act of the crime, isn't it just the cops job to apprehend the suspect? I also don't think anyone has any issues with the cops returning fire when fired upon. When it takes 8 cops to bring down one person and beat the shit out of them, that is when it seems a bit out of control. Like mentioned earlier, are they cops, or are they Judge Dredd?

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

So you're saying that there's a conspiracy? That the government is specifically fudging numbers to the tune of 7-1? That would be a biggest conspiracy in the history of our nation if not the world. That would be an undertaking of every police jurisdiction in the nation that would include tens and tens of thousands of people from all races.

Where are the hidden victims of these unreported white crimes? Why would there be a surplus of black victims to black crimes? Why isn't this being done to hispanics, asians, arabs, jews, or any other culture/race?

We need evidence if we're going to be making these kinds of accusations.

I didn't accuse anyone of anything... I simply said that you have more faith in statistics compiled by the government than I do.

What is your take on the statistics, then, Bob? You're suggesting you have less faith in them, implying that they're incorrect. Why is that?

InTenSity wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Maybe you're right. Maybe we're being too mean to murderers, rapists, kidnappers, armed robbers, etc.

Unless they are caught red handed in the act of the crime, isn't it just the cops job to apprehend the suspect? I also don't think anyone has any issues with the cops returning fire when fired upon. When it takes 8 cops to bring down one person and beat the shit out of them, that is when it seems a bit out of control. Like mentioned earlier, are they cops, or are they Judge Dredd?

So like when they're seen on top of a stolen horse after seen fleeing from them?

Or caught with illegal firearms in their trunk and trying to sell them?

Or running from them after being told they're under arrest?

xsanguine wrote:

InTenSity wrote:

Unless they are caught red handed in the act of the crime, isn't it just the cops job to apprehend the suspect? I also don't think anyone has any issues with the cops returning fire when fired upon. When it takes 8 cops to bring down one person and beat the shit out of them, that is when it seems a bit out of control. Like mentioned earlier, are they cops, or are they Judge Dredd?

So like when they're seen on top of a stolen horse after seen fleeing from them?

Or caught with illegal firearms in their trunk and trying to sell them?

Or running from them after being told they're under arrest?

They are supposed to arrest the person. And that's it. Not beat them after they've been arrested. Not murder them. That's pretty much it. Not too tough to get your mind around really.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

So like when they're seen on top of a stolen horse after seen fleeing from them?

Or caught with illegal firearms in their trunk and trying to sell them?

Or running from them after being told they're under arrest?

They are supposed to arrest the person. And that's it. Not beat them after they've been arrested. Not murder them. That's pretty much it. Not too tough to get your mind around really.

Agreed. I've agreed with this many times at this point.

Now, when someone resists being arrested? When someone resists with all their being?

I'm not sure you understand how difficult it is to apprehend someone that is dead set on not being apprehended.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I didn't accuse anyone of anything... I simply said that you have more faith in statistics compiled by the government than I do.

What is your take on the statistics, then, Bob? You're suggesting you have less faith in them, implying that they're incorrect. Why is that?

my take is that I doubt, to anyone paying attention, that statistics has ever been a driving force in someone whose opinion has evolved on a particular subject. They might support an original belief or somehow act as a catalyst to support an evolving belief.

but I doubt anyone has ever seen a statistic that correlates ice cream consumption with drownings in the summer and decided to stop eating ice cream out of fear of drowning. Of course, it is America and we are a fairly dumb lot.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

What is your take on the statistics, then, Bob? You're suggesting you have less faith in them, implying that they're incorrect. Why is that?

my take is that I doubt, to anyone paying attention, that statistics has ever been a driving force in someone whose opinion has evolved on a particular subject. They might support an original belief or somehow act as a catalyst to support an evolving belief.

but I doubt anyone has ever seen a statistic that correlates ice cream consumption with drownings in the summer and decided to stop eating ice cream out of fear of drowning. Of course, it is America and we are a fairly dumb lot.

That's fair. But we're talking about the accuracy of these statistics... because they are startling.

Why do you lack faith in the accuracy of those statistics?

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:my take is that I doubt, to anyone paying attention, that statistics has ever been a driving force in someone whose opinion has evolved on a particular subject. They might support an original belief or somehow act as a catalyst to support an evolving belief.

but I doubt anyone has ever seen a statistic that correlates ice cream consumption with drownings in the summer and decided to stop eating ice cream out of fear of drowning. Of course, it is America and we are a fairly dumb lot.

That's fair. But we're talking about the accuracy of these statistics... because they are startling.

meh..

for the record, I'm okay with disagreeing. You're likely not going to convince me that it's okay for a police officer to murder an unarmed person. No matter what statistics you advance.. - I'm not a person who has to be right on the internet.

doesn't mean you're not a great American and a damn fine Spartan (GO GREEN!)

xsanguine wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
They are supposed to arrest the person. And that's it. Not beat them after they've been arrested. Not murder them. That's pretty much it. Not too tough to get your mind around really.

Agreed. I've agreed with this many times at this point.

Now, when someone resists being arrested? When someone resists with all their being?

I'm not sure you understand how difficult it is to apprehend someone that is dead set on not being apprehended.

You get them arrested without cold bloodidly murdering them? If that's too much to ask you probably shouldn't be a cop.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

That's fair. But we're talking about the accuracy of these statistics... because they are startling.

meh..

for the record, I'm okay with disagreeing. You're likely not going to convince me that it's okay for a police officer to murder an unarmed person. No matter what statistics you advance.. - I'm not a person who has to be right on the internet.

doesn't mean you're not a great American and a damn fine Spartan (GO GREEN!)

That's not what I'm trying to convince anyone of, actually.

I agree that police brutality is a problem, I just don't think it's a racial problem.

As the article Turtleneck posted indicates and can be correlated with the violent crime stats from the FBI and Bureau of Justice...

Police shootings are nearly EXACT in proportion to the crimes per population. The statistics from Turtleneck's article still indicate that white people are killed more often by police than black people are. Black people are killed at a higher rate than their population indicates... however... they are committing a far greater rate of crime... and the statistics match perfectly; cops are killing whites proportional to their crime rates... cops are killing blacks proportional to their crime rates... cops are killing hispanics proportional to their crime rates.

The cops should be working towards lowering how many people they kill across the board. If the black community wants to lower the amount of blacks that are killed by cops... they need to stop committing the amount of crimes they are committing.

But it's not a race thing and the statistics prove that. I didn't even realize that until those statistics were posted in an article that was written to try and prove it was racial. But they are just cherry picking the stats (and even then it doesn't make sense). When you take all of the statistics combined... it all makes sense and it's not a race problem.

We, as a nation of white/black/asian/hispanic are over policed. Period.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:meh..

for the record, I'm okay with disagreeing. You're likely not going to convince me that it's okay for a police officer to murder an unarmed person. No matter what statistics you advance..    -  I'm not a person who has to be right on the internet.  

doesn't mean you're not a great American and a damn fine Spartan (GO GREEN!)

That's not what I'm trying to convince anyone of, actually.

I agree that police brutality is a problem, I just don't think it's a racial problem.

As the article Turtleneck posted indicates and can be correlated with the violent crime stats from the FBI and Bureau of Justice...

Police shootings are nearly EXACT in proportion to the crimes per population. The statistics from Turtleneck's article still indicate that white people are killed more often by police than black people are. Black people are killed at a higher rate than their population indicates... however... they are committing a far greater rate of crime... and the statistics match perfectly; cops are killing whites proportional to their crime rates... cops are killing blacks proportional to their crime rates... cops are killing hispanics proportional to their crime rates.

The cops should be working towards lowering how many people they kill across the board. If the black community wants to lower the amount of blacks that are killed by cops... they need to stop committing the amount of crimes they are committing.

But it's not a race thing and the statistics prove that. I didn't even realize that until those statistics were posted in an article that was written to try and prove it was racial. But they are just cherry picking the stats (and even then it doesn't make sense). When you take all of the statistics combined... it all makes sense and it's not a race problem.

We, as a nation of white/black/asian/hispanic are over policed. Period.

the 3 problems facing America (to varying degrees and in no particular order):

1. the government
2. the media/pop culture
3. the average American's willingness to allow the media and pop culture to make certain that their ignorance of the government is gloriously and dangerously maintained.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Agreed. I've agreed with this many times at this point.

Now, when someone resists being arrested? When someone resists with all their being?

I'm not sure you understand how difficult it is to apprehend someone that is dead set on not being apprehended.

You get them arrested without cold bloodidly murdering them? If that's too much to ask you probably shouldn't be a cop.

It probably is too much to ask because it is stable across the nation. It is far too difficult to arrest someone who is dead set on not being arrested without harming them to some degree.

The cop who accidently shot the guy selling illegal firearms out of his trunk to undercover police officers should be fired, no question about it. But he was still about to electrocute the guy... that's going to hurt. A lot. It may even kill him. It may not have any effect. We won't know because the officer couldn't tell the difference, in the heat of the moment, between his tazer and his gun... which probably feels pretty similar in the hand.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

That's not what I'm trying to convince anyone of, actually.

I agree that police brutality is a problem, I just don't think it's a racial problem.

As the article Turtleneck posted indicates and can be correlated with the violent crime stats from the FBI and Bureau of Justice...

Police shootings are nearly EXACT in proportion to the crimes per population. The statistics from Turtleneck's article still indicate that white people are killed more often by police than black people are. Black people are killed at a higher rate than their population indicates... however... they are committing a far greater rate of crime... and the statistics match perfectly; cops are killing whites proportional to their crime rates... cops are killing blacks proportional to their crime rates... cops are killing hispanics proportional to their crime rates.

The cops should be working towards lowering how many people they kill across the board. If the black community wants to lower the amount of blacks that are killed by cops... they need to stop committing the amount of crimes they are committing.

But it's not a race thing and the statistics prove that. I didn't even realize that until those statistics were posted in an article that was written to try and prove it was racial. But they are just cherry picking the stats (and even then it doesn't make sense). When you take all of the statistics combined... it all makes sense and it's not a race problem.

We, as a nation of white/black/asian/hispanic are over policed. Period.

the 3 problems facing America (to varying degrees and in no particular order:

1. the government
2. the media/pop culture
3. the average American's willingness to allow the media and pop culture to make certain that their ignorance of the government is gloriously and dangerously maintained.

See... now we're ready to agree.

I've got the same top 3, too. Except my top 3 would be #1, followed by the others for 4 and 5.

xsanguine wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:the 3 problems facing America (to varying degrees and in no particular order:

1. the government
2. the media/pop culture
3. the average American's willingness to allow the media and pop culture to make certain that their ignorance of the government is gloriously and dangerously maintained.

See... now we're ready to agree.

I've got the same top 3, too. Except my top 3 would be #1, followed by the others for 4 and 5.

and then there is scUM.. and what they've done to my life.

xsanguine wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
You get them arrested without cold bloodidly murdering them? If that's too much to ask you probably shouldn't be a cop.

It probably is too much to ask because it is stable across the nation. It is far too difficult to arrest someone who is dead set on not being arrested without harming them to some degree.

The cop who accidently shot the guy selling illegal firearms out of his trunk to undercover police officers should be fired, no question about it. But he was still about to electrocute the guy... that's going to hurt. A lot. It may even kill him. It may not have any effect. We won't know because the officer couldn't tell the difference, in the heat of the moment, between his tazer and his gun... which probably feels pretty similar in the hand.

There will always be mistakes, screw ups, etc. It's part of life. I'm not saying that there won't be incidents. But come on, this is happening seemingly every other day somewhere in the country, whether it's a mistake, a brutal beating, a murder, incompetence, irrational fear, etc. That is way way way too much. They need to be better.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

It probably is too much to ask because it is stable across the nation. It is far too difficult to arrest someone who is dead set on not being arrested without harming them to some degree.

The cop who accidently shot the guy selling illegal firearms out of his trunk to undercover police officers should be fired, no question about it. But he was still about to electrocute the guy... that's going to hurt. A lot. It may even kill him. It may not have any effect. We won't know because the officer couldn't tell the difference, in the heat of the moment, between his tazer and his gun... which probably feels pretty similar in the hand.

There will always be mistakes, screw ups, etc. It's part of life. I'm not saying that there won't be incidents. But come on, this is happening seemingly every other day somewhere in the country, whether it's a mistake, a brutal beating, a murder, incompetence, irrational fear, etc. That is way way way too much. They need to be better.

I can't do anything with this post except agree with it, Travis.

Turtleneck wrote:Here is another one for you guys to discuss.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/12/8395457/eric-harris-police-shooting

Just wow.

The 73-year-old reserve cop who mistook his gun for a Taser has been charged

Heat Miser wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Here is another one for you guys to discuss.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/12/8395457/eric-harris-police-shooting

Just wow.

The 73-year-old reserve cop who mistook his gun for a Taser has been charged

Sorry. Couldn't finish the story. Made me want to